"The Many Moods of Vince Daniels" Radio Show, March 17, 2007 http://Stop-Narconon.org/StoneHawk VINCE DANIELS: But first of all, I want to welcome back to the Many Moods, we are going to be spending some time here today, between now and the close of the show, well, what we wanted to do here today, Kim, was we wanted to have a debate, but -- I mean, in studio -- KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: -- with Per Wickstrom and Clark Carr, who were here this morning, by the way, live -- you would think, they got a show from 6:00 to 7:00, right? I mean, what's -- why can't they just, at 7:00, go out, have a nice breakfast, you know, prepare and be back here at 10:00. I was going to give the whole show today if they wanted to, at least the first two hours, if they wanted to do it. We would have had a live debate right here in studio. Wouldn't that have been great radio? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. I think it would have been -- more fun, more interesting all the way around, I think, better. VINCE DANIELS: Well, we're going to make it fun, because -- KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: -- the only way we could do it is, you know, we want to have them represented, and I calculated all the time for what we're going to be hearing in the clips I'm going to be playing, and it totals almost 15 minutes of them on clips today, so they will have had a chance to at least have their voice, but not until we hear these voices, and welcome back Kimberly Darr, who has been on with us a couple of times already. Kimberly Darr is the fianc=E9e of Dave Bowser, a student who recently left -- I forget if he left or got kicked out -- I think he left Narconon. Am I not right, Kimberly? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: Yes. Hi, Vince. VINCE DANIELS: Hi. KIMBERLY DARR: It's Kimberly. And yeah, he left. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, he left. Yeah, and which actually, is about as hard as getting kicked out, isn't it? KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, it took him -- VINCE DANIELS: It's almost easier to get kicked out. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, it took him almost two days for them to actually let him leave, and then, instead of taking him to the bus drop, like he had requested, they took him to a hotel, so that I had to cart my butt up there to pick him up. VINCE DANIELS: Right. KIMBERLY DARR: So, yeah, another victim that got dropped off with ten bucks in their bucket. VINCE DANIELS: And you know, I understand, by the way, I have heard five dollars and recently, a young -- in fact, Melissa Casey, who has been on twice with us -- in fact, I want to welcome Melissa's mom to the show, Lynn Casey. Lynn, are you out there? CASEY: Yes, I am, Vinnie. Thanks. VINCE DANIELS: Your daughter, we like to call her Mo, was telling me the other day that she knows one way, we were trying to get him on for today, I mean, I've never heard this be this low, but they actually put six cents in his hand, and dropped him off at a motel. CASEY: Yes, that was her understanding from speaking to him after he was left at the hotel in Kalamazoo, Michigan. VINCE DANIELS: Six -- I mean, that -- you know, ten bucks is bad enough, but I mean, six cents just feels insulting, you know. CASEY: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: That's like -- that's not even a waitress, a bad tip, you know. CASEY: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: And also, and welcome back. It's good to have you here. We need to hear your voice today, because you are just -- the reason I wanted to have you on today is because you're not in a good mood about any of this. CASEY: No. No, I'm not. VINCE DANIELS: And -- well, save that passion here for the next few minutes. We also have another mother of, I was going to say a victim, and maybe that's not such a bad way to describe -- of course, they, you know, the people we wanted to have on today, Clark Carr and Per Wickstrom, like to call these, you'll hear in this first clip, they like to call them students, because they're learning, but we -- lately, we have come to understand them as victims, and we have the mother of a victim, or student, or you know, whatever you want to think of them as, Sue Wilkins is joining us this morning. Sue, where are you at today? SUE WILKINS: I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. So, Sue, you -- I remember, Lynn, when we had you on, we've had you on one other time before, Lynn Casey, and it was the morning that you actually, you had just got back from picking up your daughter, Mo, and you were going to bring the police with you, but that was not necessary. Do I have the story right? CASEY: Correct. That was not necessary. They got her out quickly, and we were gone. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Well, this evidently is not the case with Sue Wilkins. Sue, tell us a little bit about this. SUE WILKINS: That's correct. Well, I took the sheriff with me, just to be real safe. I am a single working woman, and my son was there, and I didn't feel very comfortable after receiving some information, and then a call from my son as well, so I went by the police station, and actually walked in with the -- somebody with the sheriff's department out of Battle Creek. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Now, that was this week, right? SUE WILKINS: Absolutely. VINCE DANIELS: What day? SUE WILKINS: The last week of my life, I have spent sixty hours on the road, driving my son to Battle Creek, driving home by myself, getting in the car, turning around, driving back, picking him up, and bringing him home. So if I sound a little rum-drum, I am. Sixty hours on the road in a car is not very fun in one week. VINCE DANIELS: No. I don't know, how does rum-drum sound to you, Lynn and Kimberly? Will we take her that way? KIM JOHNSON: I'll take her. VINCE DANIELS: Good. Good. SUE WILKINS: And I would like to say, I classify it, I do not classify it as a student. It is a victim, and I also feel like I am a victim of this absolutely unethical, fraudulent, nasty facility that I took my son to. I have been in sales management for many, many years, and let me tell you, I would love to hire Owen Farkington and Deena Goad, because they're great salespeople on the phone when a mother is in need. VINCE DANIELS: Are these the people that -- SUE WILKINS: These are the people that helped me get my son there, and they were as good a salesperson as I have ever seen in my life. VINCE DANIELS: Was this -- SUE WILKINS: But that they sold me an absolute bill of goods. VINCE DANIELS: Was this as a result, Sue, of Googling drug rehab centers, and somehow or other, after several searches, it led you back to Stone Hawk in Michigan? SUE WILKINS: Well, it didn't take me very many searches to come up with Narconon. I typed in drug rehab, and there were probably 150 sites that came up, and they kept reflecting to Narconon. I looked at all the sites. My son is a big old burly outdoorsy type guy, and I -- VINCE DANIELS: What's your son's name? SUE WILKINS: His name is Jason. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. SUE WILKINS: And I -- VINCE DANIELS: And how -- just to give us a picture, how old is Jason? SUE WILKINS: Jason is -- just turned 35 years old. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. SUE WILKINS: He's not a kid, and he's bright, so it wasn't like -- and he was very clean. There were no drugs in his system when he went there. So, I think I have a very, very good picture of what went on. VINCE DANIELS: Now, the last time we all gathered around this topic two weeks ago, just shortly after, within about five or six days afterward, in fact, I believe it was on a Thursday, March the 8th, and that's a significant date for you, Sue, because your son, Jason, entered the program that particular day. I mean, that's -- he had a real -- just a short turnaround time. And he was in and out of there, practically. SUE WILKINS: Well, I think he was traumatized enough, after five nights and six days there, and I am so thrilled that I -- my daughter, Jason has an older sister, that came up with so much information by getting on the computer. She and I both stayed up all night long, did not go to bed, researching, finding out information about Narconon Stone Hawk, and then my son was able to slip in a collect call to me, and when I answered, he said: "Mom, get me out of here. This place is nuts, and I'm not a-kidding." And I heard it in his voice. VINCE DANIELS: Wow. SUE WILKINS: I immediately stopped payment on a check for $29,700. VINCE DANIELS: God, it just seems like, Kim, that price goes up? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Doesn't it? From -- they just keep jacking up the price. Twenty. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah, Vince. This is Kimberly. I was wondering where that $29,500 came from, because it's supposed to be $27,000, and then, they've charged some people up to $30,000, and I've been starting to think that it goes into those intake -- KIM JOHNSON: I thought he said it was $15,000 -- KIMBERLY DARR: -- people. KIM JOHNSON: -- for 30 days. VINCE DANIELS: No, this is other -- KIM JOHNSON: Oh. VINCE DANIELS: -- other programs -- KIM JOHNSON: Okay. VINCE DANIELS: -- will do about $15,000. KIM JOHNSON: Oh, okay. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, we're -- KIMBERLY DARR: And I'm just wondering if they're putting that in their pockets, or you know, because I know that their salespeople are commissioned. VINCE DANIELS: Oh. KIMBERLY DARR: Get commissions. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, of course. Well, you know, here's -- now, your son, Jason, entered the program on Thursday, which -- because I was asking you yesterday, when we were talking, that -- I was asking if your son remembered anything about an inspection, because that's the last thing that happened since the last time we were live doing this topic, and I guess he had got there late in the afternoon of the day that they did do an inspection, and he wasn't sure whether it was that particular -- does anybody there know if that -- if the Battle Creek facility was the one -- because they're very vague on their website about it. CASEY: Vinnie, this is Lynn. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. CASEY: Yes, that was the day that they went in there, and went to the Albion facility as well. VINCE DANIELS: Both of them. CASEY: Correct. VINCE DANIELS: You know this for fact? CASEY: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. CASEY: Yes, I know that for a fact. VINCE DANIELS: But what we don't know for fact is the result of -- they haven't posted anything officially as to how the -- I mean, of course, Stone Hawk has posted their version of how the -- what we need to do is we need to check with the Michigan -- CASEY: Well, and this is Lynn again, I'm sorry, the people that went in were through the Recipients' Rights, and the fellow that licensed them as well went in there, and it's my understanding that Mo should have the final report that she has written some time next week, the woman that had gone in there. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. So, sometime next week, we should know. Okay. Because we certainly want to be up, you know, I mean, I like to come in with as much information, but there really, just before coming here, there just really wasn't really any information I could get. CASEY: Well, this is Lynn again, I think the only thing that we ever found was that they were impressed with the cleanliness -- VINCE DANIELS: Gee. CASEY: -- of the place is the only thing that they posted on their website. Now, Melissa would have to tell you, because that would be hearsay, because she is the one that has to deal with them, because she is the recipient, and she is an adult, but it is my understanding that those results should be available to her, what they found and their suggestions -- VINCE DANIELS: Right. CASEY: -- to this facility. VINCE DANIELS: Well, I got to tell you, they really acted fast after the -- because this was just a month ago today that Kim and I gathered and started talking about this, and since then, as you know, the Stone Hawk facility and Narconon bought time here on KCAA, and of course, my first question is well, why does it have to be this radio station, and why does it have to be four hours before I come on the air? Well, you know, and this, I guess, was the only time available on the weekends, and I can understand that, certainly, and why this radio station? Well, it's because I'm here, and I think that they want to make their presence known, and I think at the same time, they want to do what we call damage control. But I will give them, and you know, for the next few minutes, let's just -- let's listen here, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and I will say Clark Carr does do a good job hosting this show. He does have a voice that, you know, is good for radio. He does a good presentation. There is some thought put into this show, but it's, you know, no matter how positive they're trying to make it, I know damn well it's in reaction to the stuff that we have all sat here -- and that's fair. You know, it's their -- if they want to pay for time here, that's their right. They're doing, you know, they're doing it the right way. I'll give them credit. You know, at the end of the day, that's the only way I can really look at it. I did invite them to be here. They have the right to decline my invitation. At the same time, because KCAA owns the podcast, I have the right to debate them by just debating their tapes basically, and of course, they have the right to do the very same thing to me next week on their show. So, they have bought four Saturdays here. They're coming up on their last Saturday this coming up Saturday next week, so what I wanted to do, this is the very first show from a couple of weeks ago, and this is Clark Carr introducing Per Wickstrom, who was there then, and who was also apparently here this morning, and this was just to get to get a little background on Per's story. I want all of you out there, Sue and Lynn and Kimberly, to be taking notes. You know, we've already talked about this, so you'll get a chance to respond to this, but let's let them have their say here for the next two and a half minutes. CLARK CARR: Today, we're going to talk with staff, friends, graduates, and parents of graduates of Narconon Stone Hawk, which is a pair of Narconon centers in Michigan. We have with us Per Wickstrom, President of Narconon Stone Hawk. What was it about the program? You know, what was it that handled, in the Narconon program, handled these cravings for you? PER WICKSTROM: Well, you know, I couldn't get it right for all these years, and I tried, and you know, I prayed. I grabbed the bar, I held on, you know. I talked to my parents, my counselors, psychiatrists, psychologists. I did everything, and I did the sauna part of the program, the program where it actually burned the drugs out of my body. You know, toxins go in fat. It's a proven theory. It's not -- I mean, it's a proven fact that toxins stick to fat in your body, and through the sweat of saunas and the doses of niacin, the fat sweats out, the toxins leave, and you feel great. Now, you're going to hear from other people, not just me today, that have done the program, and they're going to back everything that we're saying here. But once the sauna was complete, Clark, I felt so good. I felt I could live again. I felt I could start confronting those issues that I couldn't confront, because I no longer had those physical cravings. And when those physical cravings left, it -- like it was like somebody took a big blanket off me, and it was actually cool again. And my body felt good, I felt good. I could taste better. I could think quicker, and my cholesterol went down. Imagine that. You know, niacin reducing cholesterol. I think that's a scientifically proven fact. So, I want to tell all the listeners out there that if you're having a problem with drugs, if you're having a problem with cocaine, heroin, or anything, we're here to talk to you about it today. We're also here to talk a little bit about the rest of the program, not just dealing with the biophysical aspect of addiction, which is what the sauna fixes. We want to get in to talk about a little bit of how and why we do the things we do, and you know, why we team up with all assets, aspects of relief, not just Narconon, why we need every gun, every bullet in the gun, to fix this problem this country faces. VINCE DANIELS: Every bullet in the gun to fix this. That sounds scary, doesn't it? I mean, I understand the point he's making, but still, that analogy. Well, okay, you've had a chance to listen. Have at it. SUE WILKINS: This is Sue. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. SUE WILKINS: I have eight pills in a packet in my possession, that I am going to have checked out to see exactly what they are, to see if they're just giving them niacin. I also feel that their bullet in their gun, they should change it. Maybe they've got the wrong bullet in there, because having their victims read from Alice in Wonderland, I think they need to change the bullet. Maybe they need a .38 caliber instead of a .22 caliber. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, Kimberly, you could tell us a little bit about that, because your David had to go through that Alice in Wonderland stuff. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, yeah. VINCE DANIELS: For new listeners out there, talk to us a little bit about the significance of that. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, there is no significance of the Alice in Wonderland. Actually -- but they have them read or -- and -- or they are read to, and they are not allowed to have any emotion. They're not allowed to laugh. They're not allowed to roll their eyes. They're not allowed to move. And it's repeated hour after hour, the same paragraph, the same -- I mean, I don't understand the theory behind it, so it's really difficult for me to understand it, but realistically, listen to what he said, because it is all theory. As far as niacin, he says that it is scientifically proven that drugs are stored in your fat. Okay, that's true. It is scientifically proven that niacin will reduce your cholesterol. That is a fact. There is no scientific proof that niacin pulls drugs from your fat or your muscles, or any other part of your body, and he didn't say that there was scientific evidence to prove what they're doing to these victims. They're -- it is not medically, scientifically proven that niacin does anything in relationship to the drugs that are stored in a person's body. VINCE DANIELS: Well, they'll tell you that what they'll do is they'll start with small doses of niacin, and then, of course, they'll build up over time, and I guess what happens over time is you -- I guess you take the niacin in small doses, they claim, and then you go sit in the sauna, and somehow or other, you sweat out, you know, all the effects of the drugs and everything. Is that what you understand it to be? KIMBERLY DARR: That's the way I understand that they're selling it, but realistically, I mean drugs will stay in your system regardless of sauna. That's why they have, aside from urine tests and stuff, you can also get a folic test done, with your hair, and it'll still show up in your hair. So, it is completely false what they're selling their sauna program as. VINCE DANIELS: How many -- KIMBERLY DARR: And if a person gets out of there, and shaves their head right after sauna, two to three months down the road, drugs still show up in their hair follicles. It is not out of their system. VINCE DANIELS: No. Now -- KIMBERLY DARR: So I think -- VINCE DANIELS: Let me ask in David's case, how many milligrams of niacin were they starting him out with, and what did he end up with? KIMBERLY DARR: He started out at 100, and he was up to 2,000 milligrams a day. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Daily, what is it supposed to be? What is the recommended dose? KIMBERLY DARR: 35 milligrams. VINCE DANIELS: And where do you get this information from? KIMBERLY DARR: It's on -- if you go to -- if you do a Google search on niacin, daily niacin, it'll take you out to government sites, you know. I don't have it right here in front of me. I had it when -- on one of our last talks. VINCE DANIELS: Right. How about -- KIMBERLY DARR: The website that I went to. VINCE DANIELS: Did they -- Sue Wilkins, was your son, Jason, ever got -- did he ever get to the point of having to hit the sauna and take niacin and all that stuff? SUE WILKINS: He never got to hit the sauna, but he did bring home a packet of the medication or whatever, the niacin, and that's the eight pills that I was talking about. And it's really ironic that they are so enthralled on giving their victims those pills, but they did not give the remainder of an antibiotic that my son was taking for an infected wisdom tooth while he was there, and I find that very strange that they want to pump him with niacin, and they won't give him the antibiotic that they were instructed to give to him in a timely fashion. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: Vince. Hey, Vince, this is Kimberly. David was not responding to up to 1,000, 1,500 milligrams in the pill form, so they switched him over to powder. VINCE DANIELS: Right. KIMBERLY DARR: Which he had to add to water, juice, or whatever, and drink it, and then exercise to get it through his system, and that's the -- that's when he started having the hot flashes and you know, and that wasn't too bad for a couple of days, but then his kidneys started hurting him, and he started, you know, diarrhea and vomiting. And they just continued to give it to him every day. SUE WILKINS: This is Sue again. My -- VINCE DANIELS: You know what, Sue. Hold that thought, because we need to go to Melissa Chavez and the news coming up here at 12:00 noon, and then we'll come back on the other side, and we wanted -- we were hoping to get two clips in this hour. What we'll -- and two clips in the -- I mean two clips this half-hour, and two clips in the next half-hour. What we'll actually do is we'll do three, the other three in the next half-hour when we come back, and we'll pick it up with Clark Carr asking Per Wickstrom how he came to form the Narconon Stone Hawk treatment program. Kim, let -- you had an email address you wanted to give out here, and we want to make sure we get that in. KIMBERLY DARR: Yes. What I'm trying to do is trying to bind together these victims, because Narconon and Stone Hawk is not going to be shut down unless there's a class action lawsuit, and we continue to go through the government channels. That website is thetruthaboutstonehawk -- VINCE DANIELS: Actually, it's not a website. It's actually an email address. KIMBERLY DARR: Right. It's an email address, right. An email, I'm sorry. It's thetruthaboutstonehawk@yahoo.com, so any victims, email me and I'm compiling information to try to get everybody together on a conference call maybe, and how we can go forward with this. VINCE DANIELS: Well, we'll continue our conference call here with Kimberly Darr, and also Sue Wilkins and Lynn Casey, and we'll also hear from Clark Carr and Per Wickstrom from their very first Narconon story show, when we come back on the other side. Melissa Chavez and the news next. Happy Saint Patrick's Day everybody, from the Irish Rovers and the Vince Daniels show. [Commercial break and musical interlude] VINCE DANIELS: Welcome back, everybody. Nine minutes after the hour. We're talking -- right in the middle of a discussion with Kimberly Darr, Lynn Casey, and Sue Wilkins joining us by phone today. Welcome back to all of you. KIMBERLY DARR: Thank you. VINCE DANIELS: And what we're doing is we're having, we're having a debate, kind of by proxy in a way. We wanted to interview Clark Carr and Per Wickstrom here in studio today, which you think would be an easy thing to do, because they were, hey, they were both here this morning, you know. They were both here from 6:00 to 7:00 on this radio station, and you think they'd stick around for a few hours, come back, and we could do this live on the air, but they opted not to, which is their right, but it's also my right to go to the kcaaradio.com websites, since KCAA owns their podcast and my podcast. Of course, they're welcome to lift off moments from this show if they'd like to, and use it on theirs next week. Somehow, I doubt they'll do that, but if they do, they do, that's great. I have nothing against their show. They do have a show. Clark Carr does a good job, does a good voice, keeps my attention. Some might not agree with me. We'll -- we're going to give you all a chance to listen right now. This is -- we listened in the last hour to a clip where Clark was introducing Per on the program. He's kind of giving a little bit of his background. He had just finished up talking about his past, you know, with drug use, and now, you know, Clark is just absolutely, you know, just proud of Per and how far he's come, and is now asking him about what it was that, you know, kind of a rhetorical question, what inspired him to start Stone Hawk, and this next clip's about four minutes, and again, to Sue and to Lynn and to Kimberly, be taking notes. We'll give you a chance to respond to this. CLARK CARR: And then, you went on to take the adventurous, audacious step of not opening just one center, but two centers in Michigan. Why did you do that, take on that huge burden? PER WICKSTROM: Well, you know, the devastation that I faced with addiction, and waking up in the morning penniless and broke, taking my sister's credit cards, stealing my mom's car, pawning the TV, all those things devastated my family so much that when I looked at the whole picture, I just wanted to do more drugs because I was so ashamed of everything I did, and after I did the Narconon program, I looked at it, and I said you know what, there is -- this is great. I'm off drugs for a first chance, I've got actually some skills that I believe I can take out into this world, and I believe I can help people. And I looked at addiction in our world, and I looked out there, and I looked at everybody around me, and I looked at my, you know, so-called friends that I had, and I said you know what, these guys need help. It's not just me, it's about everybody out there. So, I said you know, I said I'm going to open one. I said this is what we're going to do, and I turned to my business partner, Kate, and I said let's do it. And so, we actually bought a building, and we rehabbed the building ourselves. We got down on our knees, we scrubbed floors, painted walls, put tile in, got -- ran the contractors. We did pretty much everything ourselves to get this building to where it was at, and you know, the biggest thing that I faced when we were out there, Clark and Greg, was that I didn't really have anybody grabbing a hold of my hand, saying I'm going to help you, you know, we're going to help you do this. But through the perseverance and determination of wanting to help people, and getting people off of drugs, you know, the people that can't make it in AA, NA, and CA, because there's not a lot of treatment options out there. You either do it one way or you do it the other way, and we wanted so much to help people. We had such passion, and I had faced and been on my knees so many times, open ended down there, on the -- in the gutter, on the floor, no different than any other addict out there listening today. I had hit bottom. I had been where you don't want to go. That we opened this center up. CLARK CARR: Well, congratulations for that. And how many students do you think that you have been able to help in the three to four years the center has been opened? PER WICKSTROM: We've graduated over, I believe, 750 students to this day. CLARK CARR: That's a lot. That's very good. GREG: Yeah. PER WICKSTROM: And we had -- CLARK CARR: And how many started the program? PER WICKSTROM: Probably a thousand. CLARK CARR: So you have a 75 percent retention rate? PER WICKSTROM: Yeah, I'd say that's pretty close to accurate. CLARK CARR: That's very good. GREG: Yeah. CLARK CARR: And the centers are licensed? PER WICKSTROM: Yeah, we're licensed by the state. We're licensed by the Community Mental Health Department. We're also inspected. CLARK CARR: How many times? PER WICKSTROM: Four times a year. CLARK CARR: Okay. PER WICKSTROM: They can do it -- it's random, so they come in any time they want. You know, we've always passed our inspections. We've never been shut down. You know, there's been some bad press and some wrong, you know, you have one or two disgruntled students, we call them students, not patients, because they're here to learn, and they kind of put a black mark up on the facility. Well, you know, the amount of people that complain, one or two, compared to what we graduate and fix, it doesn't really bother me. The reason I'm doing this out here is to get the message to these viewers that have been open ended with the wrong facts. VINCE DANIELS: No, actually, it's -- the reason you're here is because of the black mark that Lynn and Kimberly have put on your program. CASEY: Oh, you think so? Hey, Vince. This is Lynn. VINCE DANIELS: Uh-huh. I know, you want to talk about the 75 percent success rate, right? CASEY: Well, the 75 percent -- VINCE DANIELS: No. CASEY: -- success rate -- VINCE DANIELS: No. CASEY: -- and the fact that they're there to learn, which is what they represent, that they're going to be in classes, but yet, don't say they're Scientology classes, so that's how they tag them or identify them as students, apparently. And yes, the one or two that complain, apparently, they're the ones who haven't signed a gag order to get their money back. VINCE DANIELS: Right. CASEY: That's why you don't get complaints. VINCE DANIELS: Right. And you know what, there's no empirical evidence that they have a 75 -- they can't point to anything that shows that they have a 75 percent success rate. I happen to know that the Michigan Department of Corrections has put it at about, I think 6 percent. I think I read the number, 6 or 16 percent, something like that. There is no drug rehab facility known to man that can have a 75 -- it's impossible, because you're dealing with drug addicts, and you're dealing with something, you're dealing with people that are going to change when they leave the facility. There's going to be that tendency to want to backslide, for want of a better term. It happens to everybody. There's just -- there's no way that that can happen. I don't care how good you are, and how many years you've been in the community. In my opinion, at least. CASEY: No. SUE WILKINS: Vince, this is Sue. VINCE DANIELS: Uh-huh. SUE WILKINS: When I checked Jason out, the Senior Director for Administration, his name is, I will spell it, it's J-a-i. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, Jai. Yeah, I've heard of him. KIMBERLY DARR: Jai. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. SUE WILKINS: E-h-l-e-r-t. VINCE DANIELS: Uh-huh. SUE WILKINS: I was checking him out the whole time he was trying to get me to sign, I cannot tell you exactly what it said, because I was so worn out and livid anyway. VINCE DANIELS: Now, this is you -- this is interesting. This is when you arrive with a sheriff, and you're standing at the door, the front door, with a sheriff, right? SUE WILKINS: Standing at the front desk. VINCE DANIELS: Right. SUE WILKINS: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. SUE WILKINS: And he was trying to get me to sign this thing, and it seems to me that it had I agreed to pay, like, $3,500 for early termination, and all this. And he looked at me in his zombie-like state, and said: "Ma'am, are you going to put Jason in another facility?" And I said: "What was your name again?" And he said "Jai. J-a-i. The reason my name is spelled that is because my parents were rock stars." I didn't want to hear it. I cannot even tell you exactly what he said. He said: "Well, the reason," and his voice lowered, he looked around, and said -- my son was standing there, the sheriff's department guy was standing there -- he said: "Ma'am, I am also an evangelist, and I can help you get him in another program that I also work with that's a 12 Step program." And I said "You said your name was Jai?" And he said "Yes, ma'am." And I said "I absolutely cannot believe you just said that. Here you are, you're a Scientologist." He's "We are not Scientologists." KIMBERLY DARR: Amen. SUE WILKINS: "And now, you want to try to help me?" VINCE DANIELS: If they're not Scientologists, Lynn can even -- Lynn can tell you this. Mo has talked about it here on the air, her daughter, Mo Casey. If they're not Scientologists, then why do they have L. Ron Hubbard hovering over people in the cafeteria, with a picture hanging up there over the salad bar? SUE WILKINS: And Kirstie Alley, and Priscilla Presley going out to when they opened one of the new facilities, Priscilla Presley went to help them with that. VINCE DANIELS: Just a real all-star lineup there. All right. Let's listen to this next clip. This is about a minute and a half or so, and I want you to listen very closely to the words. The first voice you will hear is that of Per Wickstrom, and this is several minutes into their very first show. PER WICKSTROM: But if a person chooses to leave, he can leave. One thing we don't do is we never close the door. When a person leaves, they can always come up. GREG: And that's great. That's great. CLARK CARR: And do you charge when -- PER WICKSTROM: You never give up hope on an addict. CLARK CARR: Do you charge when they come back? PER WICKSTROM: No. Once you pay for the program, you've locked yourself into that program. Now, we do charge if the guy leaves, and he goes out and gets hooked back on heroin, or goes out and back and starts, you know, shooting Oxycontins or smoking crack. I've got to put him through withdraw again, and that's one of the costs subjugated with rehab. Withdraw is very expensive. It's the most expensive part of the program. CLARK CARR: But once they come back, they can redo it. And the program normally takes three, four, five months? PER WICKSTROM: Yeah. Yeah, on the average. My program took four and a half. CLARK CARR: Right. PER WICKSTROM: Okay, so on the average, three, you know, everybody has different, everybody has different drug problems, three to six months is the length of the program. CLARK CARR: So, in many ways, the treatment is individualized, even though it's -- GREG: It's as long as people take. CLARK CARR: -- the same, but it's individualized -- PER WICKSTROM: Right. CLARK CARR: -- as far as lengths of stay. That's important. GREG: Okay, we're going to take -- we're just going to take a short break here. Let's listen to some more of Patrick DuBell's hot jazz here, composed for this program, by the way. Thank you, Clark. CLARK CARR: Thanks. VINCE DANIELS: All righty. CASEY: Vince? VINCE DANIELS: Yes. CASEY: This is Lynn. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. CASEY: I just pulled out the papers that I signed, and that is just -- VINCE DANIELS: Hang on a second, Lynn. I'm just -- I'm loving this music here. CASEY: Oh, sorry. VINCE DANIELS: Isn't this great, Kimberly? KIM JOHNSON: Very good. CASEY: Oh, my God. KIMBERLY DARR: Does it make you want to do a TR or something? CASEY: No, I cannot believe they actually put that on the radio for people to listen to. VINCE DANIELS: Can you imagine waking up to that at 6:00 in the morning? CASEY: I feel like I'm listening to the -- you know, watching a Barney the cartoon show, or something. VINCE DANIELS: I feel like I'm a s=E9ance or something like that. It's just -- CASEY: Okay. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Go ahead, Lynn. CASEY: This is Lynn again. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, uh-huh. CASEY: You know, Per just stated that the only thing they charge is for if you come back, is for the withdrawal, and that is not so. On what I signed, it says any reentering student will also be required to complete one ethics cycle at a cost of $1,500 minimum charge. KIMBERLY DARR: And not only that, this is Kimberly, not only that, when they reenter, they don't reenter right away into the program. They reenter into ethics, what they consider ethics, and their only -- VINCE DANIELS: That's e-t-h-i-c-s, ethics? KIMBERLY DARR: Yes, that's what their -- VINCE DANIELS: What you think of right -- what you can define as right and wrong. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. KIMBERLY DARR: And they say that that is your only way to classify -- VINCE DANIELS: Wait a minute. Now, he just stated out, if you heard, that they don't -- it was right at the beginning of the clip, that if you -- that they don't charge you to come back if you want to -- CASEY: Except for the withdrawal. VINCE DANIELS: Except for the withdrawal. KIMBERLY DARR: Are you surprised? This Kimberly. Are you surprised that they're lying? I mean, come on. VINCE DANIELS: Well, you know, but -- KIMBERLY DARR: That's what they've done from the very beginning, from the first time that they called us, when David, you know, was considering, you know, what facility he wanted to go into. It's been nothing but lies, so it doesn't surprise me that they would say that, but the reality is it's not true at all. VINCE DANIELS: So, for example, if David, Dave Bowser, your fianc=E9, wanted to go back into the program, it would cost him. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. VINCE DANIELS: And again, the key thing is if he wanted to go back in. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, well, there's no way he'd want to. VINCE DANIELS: Well, but -- see now, let me -- well, let me ask you something, Sue. You know, if for example, your son wanted to go back in, would -- do you think they would just let him back in? SUE WILKINS: Absolutely not, but you know what? I think that my son will be drug free for the rest of his life after that experience, because he doesn't want to go back to anything like that. VINCE DANIELS: Are you thinking, by the way, Sue, of getting your money -- or of getting your money back, getting your almost $30,000 refunded to you? SUE WILKINS: Oh, well, I stopped payment on my checks, one of the checks for $500 went through, because I had turned down the wrong check number. They can have that $500. They can keep it, and they can stick it up their butts. KIM JOHNSON: Yikes. SUE WILKINS: But -- and they've also got about $171 of moneys that I spent for things that my son needed while he was there, of which he never received, and the entire time he was there, which was five nights, he used a T-shirt to dry off after bathing, because he didn't have his towels. They never gave the stuff to him. VINCE DANIELS: You know, we should back up, and point up that you brought your son Chris into the program, and then drove back home, and you discovered my program, and learned all about the problems that were going on at Stone Hawk. KIMBERLY DARR: Are you talking to Sue? VINCE DANIELS: Yes, yes. SUE WILKINS: Absolutely, absolutely. One thing that Jason was able to bring from Stone Hawk is ants in my car and in my garage in his suitcase, so when they do their next inspection, they need to spray for ants in that filthy facility. VINCE DANIELS: It's still a filthy -- so in other words, you know what, I think you're answering the question. I don't think they completely clean, because you know, we've been going around, Lynn and Kimberly, we've been talking, and of course, our good friend Sherry Koenig, who's been on the program, we've been, you know, going back and forth talking. I'm wondering, have -- you know, well, of course, we just naturally assume that the inspection went well, that everything's clean, that they're at least staying on their toes and not letting it get to that point, but now, you're saying, Sue, that your son Jason brought ants home with him, which tells me that they may have passed the inspection on paper, but they still have the same problem. SUE WILKINS: They were in my car, and they had to have come out of the suitcase. Then he brought his suitcase into his bedroom at my house, and I walked in and I said there are ants on the floor. So, it takes quite a problem to bring them home with you, I would think. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. It's --for all that money, it just sounds to me like where is it going. I don't -- SUE WILKINS: Well, they have -- my big check is, I closed my account yesterday just to make triple sure, and then a $200 check that I had left for incidentals for my son is also turned down. And then, he had $29 on him, that they put in his account. I took him, he dips Copenhagen, and I went and bought a roll of Copenhagen, along with all these other items that I bought him. A couple days after he was there, he went in to see if -- nobody had brought the stuff to him, like they had told him they would, that I, you know, would like the Copenhagen that she brought. They sold him two cans of Copenhagen out of a roll, of which they told me that they didn't keep Copenhagen there, that they would have to go get it for him. So, I think that they sold him Copenhagen out of the roll that I gave him for $6 a roll. VINCE DANIELS: Well, you know, Kim, you just asked a question, for all that money that there's -- that people like Sue Wilkins and the rest are spending -- KIM JOHNSON: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: -- where is it all going? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Well, I'll tell you where it's going. Who was here this morning all the way from Battle Creek? SUE WILKINS: Per. VINCE DANIELS: Per Wickstrom. Oh, let me just say right now to Per Wickstrom, and I know he's listening. Go home, Per. You have no business spending the good money of these people flying out here. I don't care if you have frequent flyer miles, what the hell, you have no business coming here to do damage control on KCAA, when you have got a freaking leaking roof, when you've got ants all over the place. You got to -- come on. KIM JOHNSON: It's just -- SUE WILKINS: And I am a smoker. I could not stand -- I said my God, what is going on down here? They took us down to a little meeting room next to the cafeteria. The smoke was so thick you could cut it with a knife, and guys, I am a smoker, so it didn't affect me like it would somebody else. It was so full of smoke, I can't even tell you how full of smoke it was, and outside, there is a foot of, literally, cigarette butts. VINCE DANIELS: Wow. Well, we're listening to all of this, and we're talking today with Sue Wilkins, who is the mother of Chris, and also, Lynn Casey, the mother of Melissa Casey, who has appeared here before -- SUE WILKINS: Jason. This is -- VINCE DANIELS: -- a couple times, and shared her story, and also, Kimberly Darr, who is the fianc=E9e of Dave Bowser. And you know, all this stuff is well and good, but you know, apparently, there have been some success stories that have come out of the Stone Hawk facility, and we're going to listen to one such success story right now. And this is -- and you know, this is a pretty dramatic story. It's about six and a half minutes, get your pen and paper out. I'm sure you're going to have some things to respond to. And you know, people listening out there are going to, you know, are going to wonder how you can possibly debate somebody who is sharing from their heart, but you know, we'll let you be the judge. Oh, here we go. CLARK CARR: Well, we have some calls now coming in, and these are from people who have completed the program, or who have a family member who completed the program. I understand we have Nicole on the line. NICOLE: Hello? CLARK CARR: Nicole. NICOLE: Yes, this is Nicole. CLARK CARR: Hi. Welcome to the Narconon Story. NICOLE: Hello. GREG: Hi, Nicole. NICOLE: Hi. CLARK CARR: So, you've got Per Wickstrom here. PER WICKSTROM: Hi, Nicole. NICOLE: Hi, Per. PER WICKSTROM: How's it going? NICOLE: It's going great. I am so thankful for this opportunity, guys, to be able to tell everybody how wonderful Narconon is. CLARK CARR: Well, I want you to tell us your story, of what, where you were at before you came to Narconon, and then, why this program worked for you. So, what state were you in before you came to Narconon? NICOLE: Well, let me tell you, there is nobody out there that is so far gone that Narconon can't help. I started using drugs when I was 12 years old. I started dabbling in prostitution by the time I was 13. When I was 16, my family had sent me in and out of drug rehabilitation centers, none of which had worked for me. When I was 21, I had my daughter, and for the love of my daughter, I did manage to stay clean from drugs through my pregnancy, but by the time she was 10 months old, I was back in it again, using drugs daily. It was so bad that there were drugs, I had left drugs on the floor where my husband at the time was picking them up, for fear that my infant child was going to swallow them. It had gotten so bad one time I was breastfeeding, and I had taken drugs, and I thought my -- I couldn't wake up my daughter. It was absolutely terrible. CLARK CARR: So, you had -- not even hit bottom. You had fallen below bottom, where you were actually damaging even those that you loved the most. NICOLE: Oh, it got even worse than that. Shortly after that, I lost my daughter, the love of my life. I walked away from her, and once again, I found myself in the streets, a full-time life of prostitution, crime, to support my drug habit. I would go days without food. I would go days without water, no sleep. I would walk sometimes 30 miles a day, I would be just walking to where there were blisters forming on the bottom of my feet on top of blisters, to where I felt like I just couldn't take another step. I would get in cars with people that I didn't know. I didn't know. I would wake up to people, I would wake up in the morning, when I did fall asleep, I would wake up, and there would be somebody next to me. I don't even know how I got there, who they were. There would be times I didn't know if I would wake up. My life had just went down a dwindling spiral. I felt as if there was nothing that was going to save me, and I didn't care if I died. The only thing I cared about living was for the next fix. I lived this lifestyle for about 19 years, until one day, I woke up in the hospital on my deathbed. I had doctors standing around me. I wasn't quite sure how I had gotten there. I had 106 temperature, and the worst staph infection known to man, caused by a dirty needle. My arm looked like, you got to remember, from the drug use, I weighed about 97 pounds, but my arm was so infected, it was swollen to that of a 400 pound woman. CLARK CARR: My goodness. NICOLE: I spent 11 days there in the hospital. Doctors, they basically told me they weren't sure if I was going to make it, and that they were going to have to amputate my arm. Thankfully -- CLARK CARR: So, then what -- Nicole, so then what happened, because that's the time that we talked? Remember? NICOLE: That's correct. CLARK CARR: I talked to your parents, and we had talked, and they wanted to amputate your arm, so now, this is where you actually come to the Narconon program. NICOLE: That is correct. Actually, Narconon sent a staff member to retrieve me from the hospital, thankfully. They drove two and a half hours away. They picked me up, brought me back to Narconon, and it was just, for the first time, I felt a little bit of safety. I felt safe. I didn't even know what that feeling felt like before, and before I could even begin the program, the staff at Narconon was so wonderful. They nursed me back to health by bringing me back and forth to my doctors' offices, making sure I ate right, by giving me my vitamins, and giving me this awesome thing that was called an assist, which was, it basically, it helped me to heal in a much faster pace. CLARK CARR: That's great. And so, what happened to your arm? NICOLE: Well, actually, I have my arm, and -- CLARK CARR: You got two arms. NICOLE: The doctors -- I have two arms. I have two arms, it's just -- it's actually just -- it's a miracle. It is a miracle. The doctor -- CLARK CARR: Well, and part of the miracle is you, that you hung in there, and -- both Narconon and you. And I want to congratulate you for hanging in there. You then got into the Narconon program, right? And what was it -- NICOLE: Well, yes -- CLARK CARR: -- in the Narconon program that you feel worked for you? What are the portions of the program that you feel personally handled your addiction? NICOLE: Well, all of it. They all work together, but without the Purification Program. CLARK CARR: This is the sauna, sweat-out? NICOLE: I don't think -- that's correct. I would not have been able to make it without the sauna sweat-out, because I was -- I had so much drug built up in my body, there is no way I would have been able to make it without, you know, with the physical addiction. But after the Purif, oh, my God. I felt feelings that I was trying to achieve by getting -- you know, like what I was using the drugs for. PER WICKSTROM: Exactly. NICOLE: I was using the drugs to feel happiness, but I wasn't getting happy. CLARK CARR: No, they -- NICOLE: And when I got out of the -- oh, my God, I feel so strongly about this one, I got out of the sauna, I felt like I never felt like before in my life, like it was the thing I was searching for through the drugs, that I couldn't get. Does that make sense? VINCE DANIELS: Kimberly, does that make sense to you? KIM JOHNSON: This Kimberly? VINCE DANIELS: No, no. No, not you. KIM JOHNSON: Oh, okay. The other Kimberly. Are you out there, Kim? KIM JOHNSON: I don't hear -- KIMBERLY DARR: Here, Vince. VINCE DANIELS: Yes. KIMBERLY DARR: You know what makes sense about this? This is an infomercial that we're listening to. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: That's the only thing that makes sense to me. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: They're paying for this advertisement. This is an infomercial. VINCE DANIELS: No, no, no. You don't think this is an actual radio show? KIMBERLY DARR: No. SUE WILKINS: No. VINCE DANIELS: A talk show, where people can call in -- KIMBERLY DARR: Absolutely not. VINCE DANIELS: -- and fairly give their side of the story? KIM JOHNSON: It's nothing like that. KIMBERLY DARR: Absolutely not, and you know what else I caught? He actually corrected her. She was talking about -- without the Purification Rundown, and he was like oh, you mean the sauna sweat-out, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sauna sweat-out. You know why he did that? Because the Purification Rundown that she mentioned is a Scientology term. VINCE DANIELS: Hmm. KIMBERLY DARR: It's not used at Narconon. They don't call it a Purification Rundown at Narconon. They call it the sauna sweat-out. VINCE DANIELS: You're so right. You're so right. I've seen that -- yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: So, I'm betting that this person is a Scientologist. KIM JOHNSON: Well, yeah. I mean -- KIMBERLY DARR: Because he actually even corrected her. KIM JOHNSON: I think that seems quite obvious, and you know, still, after all these weeks, I think that A, just send pictures showing that it's been cleaned up, really address where all this money goes, if there is a 24 hour doctor, and really address these situations head-on on this show, would have given me -- would have made -- the credibility factor, but instead, to do it in such a passive-aggressive way, to do another show on the station, in the morning, it's such a passive-aggressive behavior -- VINCE DANIELS: Right. KIM JOHNSON: -- to me. And it just shows -- VINCE DANIELS: Great point. KIM JOHNSON: -- to me, that -- I mean, if you are so proud of something, wouldn't you want to embrace the dialogue of the conflict, and really have resolution? VINCE DANIELS: Kim. I -- KIM JOHNSON: This seems to me, you know -- VINCE DANIELS: Kim Johnson, I agree with that, you know. I'm glad you bring that up, and you've brought this up from day one, a month ago, when you came on this show, joined this show. And that is, if you've got -- listen, you know, then get into the crucible of it. If you have something to defend, come here, you know, the marketplace of ideas, and defend it, you know, right here, on the show. This is where we're bringing up the issue. Debate it at our table. KIM JOHNSON: Well, yeah. VINCE DANIELS: It's fine to have your own table and your own show at 6:00 in the morning, but all that serves to do -- KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: -- and I think these ladies just hit it, it is an infomercial. KIM JOHNSON: You know, I'm going to -- I'm just going to go out on a limb here, and I'm going to say I really believe this is a funding issue. I really believe that the core of what's going on is the fear of where the funding is coming from, because it's my understanding that when you get funding for these sort of places, especially when there are so many of them, you're looking at, you know, a lot of addicts getting second chances to run these places. It just doesn't seem like there's a representation of the truth coming out about what's really going on, if there's even a problem with them. So, it's just once again, smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. And nothing's getting done. KIMBERLY DARR: Hey, Vince. VINCE DANIELS: Exactly. KIMBERLY DARR: Hey, Vince. This is Kimberly, and I think that that's why they won't come on and debate you. They don't want some of these specific questions. KIM JOHNSON: That's right. VINCE DANIELS: No. KIM JOHNSON: I believe that wholeheartedly. KIMBERLY DARR: They don't want to answer them. VINCE DANIELS: Well, one of them that declined my offer said to me, we'd just rather keep it on a high road, and just do what we do, and keep it positive. That -- I've heard them -- I mean, that -- KIM JOHNSON: But I don't think it is a high road. VINCE DANIELS: All these years of -- KIM JOHNSON: I think it's the passive-aggressive -- VINCE DANIELS: Right. KIM JOHNSON: -- weenie approach. VINCE DANIELS: Right. Yeah. I would agree with you on that one. Hey, Kimberly. We -- somebody had called during the last break we took, and said give out that -- well, before you give out the email address again, they wanted you to give it out a little bit slower, so they could write this down. I wanted to ask you, Sue Wilkins, because I know Lynn, you've been -- I mean, you're interested in, and I know there's a lot of -- you've been talking -- you've all been talking to each other, at least I know Lynn and Kimberly have been talking amongst each -- or between each other about a class action suit, and banding together. Is that still going in full form right now? KIMBERLY DARR: Absolutely, and there's more people out there that -- SUE WILKINS: Add Sue Wilkins -- KIMBERLY DARR: -- you know, that we haven't talked to -- SUE WILKINS: -- to the list. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, I will tell you, go ahead and email me, and the email address is thetruthaboutstonehawk@yahoo.com. VINCE DANIELS: Thetruthaboutstonehawk, that's s-t-o-n-e-h-a-w-k, all one word, at yahoo.com. Thetruthaboutstonehawk@yahoo.com. KIMBERLY DARR: That's correct. VINCE DANIELS: Sue, is this about getting a refund, or what's at the -- and if it is, then just you know, tell us, or what is this about for you? SUE WILKINS: No, it is not about getting a refund. My son is near and dear to my heart, and I will spend the last dollar I have to help him, but I will not spend one cent to warp him more than he is already warped. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I feel that those people out there are zombie-like. KIMBERLY DARR: Vince? SUE WILKINS: I feel that they are unethical. I felt weird when I left him there, came home immediately after the trip. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. SUE WILKINS: And started searching. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, go ahead, quickly. KIMBERLY DARR: Hey, Vince. This is Lynn. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. SUE WILKINS: I would also suggest to those out there that are listening, to contact the Recipients Right Advocate for the state of Michigan, and also, the Better Business Bureau, and even the Licensing Commission here. Go that way as well. VINCE DANIELS: All right. Hey, thank you all, Lynn Casey, Kimberly Darr, and Sue Wilkins for being on here with us today. KIM JOHNSON: Thanks, guys. VINCE DANIELS: And when we come back, Chris White is going to join us. Chris is 22 years old. He's from West Virginia, and he has a "success story" of his own, when we come back on the other side. CASEY: Thanks, Vinnie. KIM JOHNSON: Thanks, guys. VINCE DANIELS: Thank you very much all for being on. We'll do this. CASEY: Thank you, Vinnie. I appreciate it. VINCE DANIELS: You bet you, and thank you for sharing your stories this morning, 19 to the hour here on the Vince Daniels show, and more great Boston music. [Commercial break and musical interlude] VINCE DANIELS: Hey, listen, welcome back. Chris White is joining us here by phone from West Virginia. Welcome to the Many Moods, Chris. XXX: Hi, it's good to be here. VINCE DANIELS: Now, you know, we were listening in the last break there, over the last segment, of some success stories, and I guess by all standards, you would not be what Narconon Stone Hawk would be a success story. CHRIS WHITE: Definitely not. VINCE DANIELS: Give us your story. CHRIS WHITE: All right. Basically -- VINCE DANIELS: A lot of -- because a lot of people think that we're just jumping on, you know, we're just getting the people on who just recently left the program, and there are a lot of them, and some of them are afraid, you know, to come on. They're not sure, they're kind of testing the waters, and we will have them on eventually, but you actually go back about a year. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah, about late 2005, early 2006. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. CHRIS WHITE: Basically, I went in, I did all the -- my parents called, and were told, was told all this, you know, this place is this wonderful place, that I would come out with a different person, and off drugs and alcohol, and all this crap. Well, the original price was $30,000 just to get in, so my parents paid it, flew down there. I got there, and they put me in the withdrawal, because I had to detox, because I was definitely, you know, I was going to have withdrawal. Well, they told me that I could call my parents like every night from the withdrawal house. Well, they didn't hear from me for like two weeks, because I was in withdrawals for two weeks. My mom called there probably ten or eleven times, and you know, they was just like no, you can't talk to him. And they didn't even tell me she called. I didn't find out until I got out and went to the main building. Well, after I got out of there, and went over to the main place, and -- that's where everything pretty much just -- VINCE DANIELS: The main place in Battle Creek, right? CHRIS WHITE: Yeah, the actual Stone Hawk. The main building. You know, basically, you get over there, they throw you in this little room that's probably not much bigger than a jail cell, with probably, I don't know, I think my room had like probably six beds in it, bunk beds, stacked on one top of each other. The room that I was in was getting cleaned for asbestos at the time that I was, the time that I got put in it, and they still made us stay in it, and they wouldn't switch us rooms or anything. I mean, there was actually people in there working. VINCE DANIELS: Asbestos. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. To try to get the stuff cleaned up. Then I started -- the day I went, I started the classes, the TRs or whatever they're called, whatever you want to call them. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, the Training Routines, right. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah, Training Routines. And the -- I mean, it was the most bizarre stuff that I have ever had to do in my life. And I mean, the bullbaiting, I heard on your last show, people, your guests was talking about the bullbaiting, where they would stick their hands down their pants, and get -- rub it all of their junk, and then stick it under your face, and yeah, that is like 100 percent true. Because I've seen it happen, and not only with the genitalia, but I've actually had a guy put his hand down the back of his pants, and get all up in his stuff, and then stick his hands underneath my face. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Well, Kim, you had the best line, about a month ago. You didn't call it bullbaiting. KIM JOHNSON: I called it ballbaiting. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: I thought it was -- because -- sticking in their hands -- ballbaiting. Either way, it's just disgusting. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God. KIM JOHNSON: And I think it's over the top. VINCE DANIELS: And right in your -- oh, crack -- oh, jeez. KIM JOHNSON: I mean -- VINCE DANIELS: I don't want to go back there. Yecch. Don't even want to think about that. That's -- KIM JOHNSON: It's over the top. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. And didn't -- when we had her on a month ago today, Kate Wickstrom, she denied the bullbaiting, didn't she? KIM JOHNSON: Well, and then, when you asked them questions directly about is it Scientology? It seems like all the important questions are completely avoided, all the things that, you know, could be so easy. We could all be friends. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: But it's not working out that way, is it? VINCE DANIELS: Wouldn't that be nice? Well, now, how about the niacin thing? Talk to us a little bit about that. CHRIS WHITE: Okay. The niacin, I, when I went to sauna, I mean, they start you out at like, I think it's 30 milligrams. That really doesn't bother you too bad, but by the time, like, that I was in there for like two weeks, and like, by the end of it, I was taking, like, over, I know it was over 2,000 milligrams. VINCE DANIELS: Per day? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Or cumulative? CHRIS WHITE: Yeah, per day. VINCE DANIELS: Per, oh. 2,000. CHRIS WHITE: Per sauna -- VINCE DANIELS: Can you imagine, 2,000 one day, and 2,000 the next? KIM JOHNSON: And what was your experience at that level? Were you feeling, I mean, were you sick? Were you -- do you -- okay, and let me ask you this. At the end of it, how did you feel? Do you -- I mean, are you in support of the saunas, or do you feel like it's just all hype? CHRIS WHITE: Oh, no. It's total bullcrap. I mean, it's all just bullcrap. Probably -- KIM JOHNSON: And did they ever tell you that they were Scientology? Did they ever try to convert you? Have they bugged you? Has there been a problem? Have you had a tough time with them? CHRIS WHITE: See, that's -- I really don't understand that, how they can say they're not involved with Scientology. You know, when they have a shrine to L. Ron Hubbard, like in the lunch room. KIM JOHNSON: Well, it's all over the Internet right now. I mean, as we're talking, I'm on the Internet, and several of the sites, basically, they'll say it, but then, other places, they won't say it. And then, when you ask them directly, they don't answer the question. But yet, then they fly all the way out here, and have a show on before ours, and -- but don't participate. So it's like, you know, I was saying, it's this passive-aggressive, bratty behavior from the peripheral, instead of just coming right out and dealing with it. It's odd to me. I don't -- VINCE DANIELS: Well, tell -- what was it, Chris, that prompted you to leave? And I might add that you came on to my website, and you emailed me, which any of you, by the way, out there can do, vincedaniels@vincedaniels.com, but you were, you know, you wrote me quite a few emails wanting to come on and share your story, and I certainly wanted to get you on here today. What was it that prompted you ultimately to -- how long were you in the program before you just had enough? CHRIS WHITE: I was probably in for about five months total. And -- VINCE DANIELS: Did you try to tell your mother, your father, anybody, family members about this? CHRIS WHITE: Yes. Yes. VINCE DANIELS: And what kind of reaction did you get? CHRIS WHITE: They really didn't really believe me, because like all the intake counselors, and the ethics people, and all them was just telling them, oh, he's just not getting it, you know, he's not complying with the rules, and bla bla bla, and all this. KIM JOHNSON: So, you weren't getting Scientology. It's not that you -- CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: -- weren't getting rehab. You just weren't getting Scientology. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah, I mean, they make you do, write these things called overts. It's like every bad thing you've ever done in your life, you have to write it down, and then, you have to read it to everybody. And you know, I got like halfway through, and then, one of the teachers, or whatever you want to call them, came in to where I was sitting, and read over them, and was like, you know, these aren't right, and I was like, I don't understand these. I was like how does this help? I was like this makes, like, no sense. I was like how is this going to help me not do drugs? You know, not drink, and I got jumped on and sent to ethics. KIM JOHNSON: Did you find something that worked afterwards? Have you since been in -- VINCE DANIELS: Well, not -- KIM JOHNSON: -- another program? VINCE DANIELS: We should back up, because you got sick quite a bit there. CHRIS WHITE: Oh, yeah. The sauna made me like deathly, deathly sick, like horrible sick. VINCE DANIELS: Like the flu? CHRIS WHITE: I'm pretty sure -- yeah, it was like the last few days I was in there, they had me doing all that jacked-up niacin, you know, I went in, and I remember one of the days, I started having really bad heart palpitations, and just feeling really bad, and they just told me to get back in the sauna, and sweat it out. And I was like no, you know, I'm not doing it. I'm going back to my room and lay down. VINCE DANIELS: What'd they say to that? CHRIS WHITE: They took me out of the sauna, and threw me in the ethics thing, and made me sit there for probably eight or nine hours, staring at the wall. Because there was nobody else in there to do the TRs with me. VINCE DANIELS: Wow. So, in talking with your parents, they weren't buying it at first. They just thought, he just wants to come home, and get back into his regular, you know, drug life again. CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. What was it that finally got them to come around? CHRIS WHITE: Pretty much, it was me, they didn't want me to leave. I finally pushed and pushed, and then, they took me to the doctor, finally, because I was feeling so bad, and then, the doctor said that I had caught shingles somehow, so I'm assuming -- VINCE DANIELS: Shingles. Wow. CHRIS WHITE: -- I caught it from out there. So, I was contagious, so they locked me in -- they took me back to the withdrawal, and locked me, and like quarantined me in a room for like six days, until somebody could come get me. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: Jeez. CHRIS WHITE: And then, that's when I took the first, my, the medical leave, the first time. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Did you have to play hell to get out of there? CHRIS WHITE: Oh, yeah. It was hard. I mean -- KIM JOHNSON: Do they bug you now? CHRIS WHITE: They just kept saying that I was afraid of something, that I had something that I was afraid of, you know, I was like I am not afraid of nothing. I was like I don't feel good. I was like this place is -- I mean, they're all crazy. They're just, they're not -- VINCE DANIELS: They said you had some fears, or something holding you back, or -- CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: That's right out of the Scientology playbook. KIM JOHNSON: Well, I was going to say, isn't that part of the Scientology -- VINCE DANIELS: Yeah.. KIM JOHNSON: -- that there's some belief that there is an entity that exists for millions of years, and that there's something through the drugs that you're, there is some addiction to that pain body, or that pain kind of energy from alien. Is that what I'm understanding? VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, it all comes back to Xenu, the galactic overlord from 75 million years ago. Yeah, they're trying to tell you that everything in your body is going waka waka waka waka waka waka, just like Xenu, yeah. KIM JOHNSON: And you know, hey, for all intensive purposes, if it's something that you feel that strongly about, and that's your truth, that's why I'm having the problem with why they don't come out and just, I mean, you know, just, I just wish that there could be more honesty. I mean, hey, if it's all about Xenu for you, then just say it, and if that's the case. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: Give people the chance to say whether they want to go for Xenu -- VINCE DANIELS: That's -- KIM JOHNSON: -- or not. VINCE DANIELS: That's what I say. Hey, we've got about thirty seconds here, Chris. KIM JOHNSON: Oh, okay. VINCE DANIELS: I mean, how are you feeling? How are you feeling today? I mean, how are you handling all this? CHRIS WHITE: I'm doing a lot better than I was. KIM JOHNSON: Good. CHRIS WHITE: When I left there, I pretty much just came back, and you know, I just quit. And I just quit doing everything, and -- VINCE DANIELS: And you've been drug-free? Are you drug-free right now? CHRIS WHITE: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Right. You don't have any temptation to go back to the old lifestyle, or -- CHRIS WHITE: Well, I mean, there's always some temptation. VINCE DANIELS: Did you go to any other kind of drug treatment program after Stone Hawk? CHRIS WHITE: Before Stone Hawk, I was in AA and rehabs that deal with the Twelve Steps and stuff like that. VINCE DANIELS: Right. Yeah. Hey, thank you. I -- KIM JOHNSON: Thank you. VINCE DANIELS: You know, I appreciate you so much for taking the time to come on here today. Thank you very much. CHRIS WHITE: And thank you for listening. KIM JOHNSON: And good luck with your continued success with rehab. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, and thank you, Ms. Johnson. We will hear from you tomorrow, 1:00 to 2:00, here on KCAA, on the Overground Railroad, and see you back here two weeks from today. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Have a -- KIM JOHNSON: Have a great week, everybody. VINCE DANIELS: And a great and happy Saint Patty's day. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Bye bye, everyone. Blimey.