Hi, I recently sent a posting asking for amp suggestions for Thiel 2 2 speakers in the $1000.00 price range. Now that all the replies are in, here are the results of the survey, for all who might be interested. I must say I was pleasantly surprised by the wide variety of suggestions, especially since all the dealers I'd been to had recommended only B&K and Adcom (not to say there's anything wrong with these two, just that it seemed like too few). One interesting observation I made from everyone's comments was that although Acurus and Aragon and Classe were three of the most recommended amps, practically no one who recommended them had any experience using them with Thiel 2 2 speakers. However, most of those who recommended Forte, Bryston and Muse HAD heard them with the Thiel 2 2s, however, and had preferred them to others (most of which are also in this list). I'd be curious to know what's made Acurus, Aragon and Classe so popular in the U.S. (good advertising ? good reviews ?), since they're virtually unknown here in Europe (at least what I've seen of it). It's also worth pointing out that although many of these amps are in the $1000 to $1500 range in the U.S., they cost approximately TWICE that much here in Spain (those that are even available, that is). I think I'm going to have to settle for something "mid-fi" until I can smuggle something better back from my next trip to the U.S. :>D Here's a table summarizing the survey, followed by excerpts from everyone's replies. -- Gordon Gordon Wells Instituto de Cibernetica Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya Barcelona, SPAIN =================================== NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS RECEIVED IN SURVEY OF AMPS TO DRIVE THIEL 2.2 SPEAKERS =================================== Acurus A250 8 ----------------------------------- Aragon 2004, 2003, 4004 6 Forte 1a, 4, 5 6 ----------------------------------- Classe 70 5 ----------------------------------- Muse 100 4 ----------------------------------- Rotel 980, 990 5 ----------------------------------- B&K ST140 3 Bryston 3BNRB 3 Hafler 9300, 9500 3 Parasound 1200 3 ----------------------------------- PS Audio 2 Threshold 2 ----------------------------------- Adcom 545-II 1 Audio Research 1 Carver TFM-55 1 Counterpoint SA-12 1 Creek 1 Exposure 1 Harmon Kardon 1 Marantz MA-22 1 Musical Design D140i 1 ----------------------------------- TOTAL RECOMMENDATIONS 59 NUMBER OF RESPONSES 24 =================================== ======================================================================== I'm surprised that they recommended Adcom and B&K - they're good and represent good value, but for $1500, you can get yourself into the next level, IMO. I think a great amp for the Thiel would be the Hafler 9300 or, if you're willing to spend a bit more, the 9500. I think they would smoke the Adcom. I have the Classe' 70. I don't know whether the Theil is 8 or 4 ohm, but the Classe' delivers 75 wpc into 8 ohm and 150 wpc into 4 ohm. Believe me, it sounds like a powerful amplifier. I goes for about $1200. You may also want to consider Bryston. The 3B NRB goes for about $1250. It has great bass. ======================================================================== Rotel amps are almost same as Adcoms in performance. Some people think they are better than Adcom. Supposedly, Adcoms are manufactured in Rotel's factory. Also, I have seen Classe amps which are supposedly good. ======================================================================== I have no real experience with Thiels, but I think you could do a lot worse than the Muse One Hundred amplifier. This is a simple, not to expensive, 100W quite-high-current MOSFET amplifier with RCA and/or XLR inputs. It is reputed to have real bass power and a tube-like silkily treble. Another possibility might be the Acurus 250 power amp and (just think of them) the little Marantz Music Link MA-22 monoblocks, although they are 'only' 50W. These Marantzes are real high-end machines, so check them out! ======================================================================== My choice would be the Bryston 3B NRB amp. Just got one a month or so ago and it is a very muscle bound 125 w/ch for a list of about $1,500 I believe (not sure as I bought the amp as part of a 'deal'). ======================================================================== There was a thread recently about amps for the Thiel 2.2. Some people liked the Classe 70. There were some other recommendations but I can't remember what they were. I don't have the Thiel 2.2 but I recently bought a new pair of Thiel 1.2's. The 2.2's are way out of my budget. I am using a Forte Model 5 solid state amp. I got it used for a good price from a dealer so I couldn't pass it up. I am still breaking in the 1.2's but so far I am extremely pleased with the combination. The Forte Model 5 should cost about $1000. It's rated for 100 wpc into 8 ohms. If you have a chance, I think it is worth an audition. ======================================================================== I also looked very hard at the Thiel 2 2, but eventually got the Martin Logan Aerius. In my discussions with the dealer, they said they believed my Adcom GFA 545II (100w) for ~$550 would work just fine with Thiel. The Thiel is indeed a very hard load to drive, with a minimum impedance between 1 and 2 ohms I believe. I think the Aerius is even more demanding, with a lower nominal impedance. Anyway, the Aerius sounds just fine with my "little" Adcom, although undoubtedly it would sound better with the $5000 Classe it was driven with in the store. I've never engaged the protection circuitry on my Adcom with the Aerius, and unless you're used to listening at 100DB, I wouldn't worry too much about having more than a 100W amp. If I were in your shoes, with the speaker decision made prior to the amp decision, I'd get the speakers and audition all the amps at the dealer, then audition amps at other dealers. Be sure to listen to Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, and Aragon, in addition to what your dealer recommended. One last bit of advice - my dealer was of the opinion that my upgrade money would be better spent on a new preamp than a new amp. ======================================================================== I have a pair of Thiel CS 2 speakers, and I bought a used Counterpoint SA-12 about two months ago. This set up delivers me into audio heaven! I don't think the Thiel is that picky. When I first bought it, I was living away from my main system, and I drove the speakers with my roommate's boombox! The imaging was still impressive... The Counterpoint is a hybrid amplifier. And a lot of people that I've talked to seem to recommend a tube equipment to drive the Thiel. I have to say that the Counterpoint drives the Thiel effortlessly, and the sound is simply sweet and wonderful! I have a friend who's just offered to trade with his Threshold 400A amp, which is a class A, solid-state amp, but I don't think I will take his offer. The SA-12 is continued with the SA-100, I believe, and its price should be in the neighborhood of $1,500.- On the higher price range, the local Thiel dealer seems to be pushing Audio Research, but their entry level, solid-state amp starts at $2,500 or so. A used one may fall within the price range you specified. ======================================================================== An Adcom amp and Theil 2.2 speakers would be a very bad combination. The Adcoms have an increased output in the treble and the bass. The Theils have an airy treble via a metal dome tweeter. The combination could be a very harsh over emphasized treble. I experienced the same problem with a Adcom 535II amp and PSB Stratus Golds. The 535 is the lowest powered amp Adcom makes but listening to the 555II and 545 indicates the line of Adcom amps shares the 535 sound characteristics. Look for an Acurus A-250 or Muse 100. You might be able to find a used high end amp like a VTL or Krell if you take your time. ======================================================================== I don't know Thiels, but there quite a few good amps in your price range in the US; your options may be limited by what's available in Spain. For example, the Acurus A250 is $895 here and probably would do a better job than, say the Adcom GFA-555 II. I'm sure you'll get plenty of others' favorites mentioned to you. Personally, I biamp with Forte 1a's ($600 apiece used) each 50 W/ch, giving me 100 watts per side. If you can find stuff like this at all, there's probably a hefty markup in Europe. ======================================================================== This may be pushing the budget a bit, but the Forte' amps do a pretty credible job. Not sure about the others in the line but I do like my B&K ST140 a helluva alot better than the Adcom 545 that I had in here for comparison (different speakers though, not as revealing as Thiels). You might also want to give Acurus a try, or their bigger Aragon brothers the 2004 (or a used 4004. Or hell, maybe a new 4004....jeez, two-foot-itis sure sets in quick in the audio world, doesn't it . Maybe quicker than in the boating world...) ======================================================================== I am using a Musical Design D140i amp. I find it to be a good match with the Thiels 3.6. It has 140 watts and very high current. It is also a beautiful looking amp.. with a solid silver face plate etc...I find it to match any amplifiers under $4000. I am using it with a tube preamp also by Musical design and the thiels are just singing away. The retail price on the amp is $1500 only!!! But I bought mine from a dealer friend at $1250. Before this amp, I was using the B&K Sonata EX442 which I was also terribly impressed and found it to be very good. But of course, The Musical Design is in a class of its own far superior to the B&K. My dealer friend also sells B&K so I might be able to get a good price too. Go for good value for money. The B&K is an excellent choice but if you can spend a bit more, go for the Musical Design and your Thiels will thank you for it. ======================================================================== Congratulations on your purchase. I've been thinking about getting a pair myself, but the price keeps on going up every time I have the money to buy them... :) Anyways, here's some advice for amps. I've listened to all of these amps, and would reccomend any of them to you, but this is going to be biased by my own preference, naturally. You mention high-current amps. This is not a necessity for the Thiels. They are very well behaved speakers, and while high current amps are very nice, and usually sound a bit better, as long as you find amps VERY stable into 4 ohms, you should be OK. An easy way to see stability into 4 ohms (this is a rule of thumb) is that the power doubles into 4, and doubles again into 2. For example: The Rowland model 1 is 60 W/ch at 8 ohms, 120 into 4, and 240 into 2. Anyways, here's my suggestions for amps to possibly audition. Aragon 2003 Mk II - The little brother to the 4004. This amp has been widely reviewed, and liked, and for good reason, in my opinion. It is very warm and smooth, and makes an excellent match with electrostatics. I have spent a fair amount of time with the 2004 and the CS 2 2 (Owning one, and auditioning the other) and have always been pleased. Price: ~$12-1400. Classe 70 - At 70 W/ch (140 into 4 ohms), this is a little less powerful than the 2004 (Which is 100 W/ch, BTW). It doesn't quite have the bottom end that the Aragon does, but I think the slightly more laid back presentation and more mellow overall sound makes this a better match with the CS 2 2. Price: $1100 Creek - When I first auditioned the Thiels, I started with the 1.2 being run by the Creek 4140. The sound was already a lot better than whatever I had heard, and I was intrigued. We proceeded to schlep the 2 2's and also hooked them up to the Creek. This produced more than passable sound. It's a little lightweight, and the volume won't go extremely high, although it goes as loud as I need it. The little integrated is only 40 W/ch, but my dealer just mentioned to me that Creek is preparing to release some separates... Could be something to watch for. These are the 2 amps I would highly reccomend. There are others, but I think these represent the best sound at the price... ======================================================================== I'm not familiar with Thiel, but when I was searching for an amp, Rotel was the most common referal. The price range is close to Adcom and the power is supposedly warmer, less analytical, than Adcom. Personally, I like the sound of a Denon amp better than Adcom, but then they're not really high-end. Here are some options to pursue. There is the RB 990, which is a meaty 200w/ch, or the RB 980 at 120w/ch. The option I would consider (after further questioning across the net) is the RB 960, running at only 60w/ch. Given a choice, I think I'd do the last, buying two and bridging them mono, running one to each speaker. They rate at 180w bridged, which should be sweet with even a fairly demanding speaker. If memory serves, the 960 is just over $300 (US), which would leave room for a very nice pre-amp, and still within your budget. I don't know too much about the bridging business, other than it's been suggested to me, so ask around. Let us know what you decide. ======================================================================== If you are thinking of the B&K ST-140, I would not call that a high-current design. A friend of mine has the Thiel 2's mated to an ST-140, and it is adequate, but can sound somewhat thin (weak bass). In the same price range I would recommend the Aragon 2004 II, which is about $1200 in the US. This is a high-current design. If you can afford it, I would recommend the Aragon 4004 II (200WPC), which does very well with the Apogee Stages, another demanding speaker. IMHO, the Thiel 2 2 speaker needs a better amp than a B&K or Adcom in order to get closer to its true potential. ======================================================================== Too bad you are not in Northern California. There is a place that has a used Threshold amp for $775 that would meet your needs. ======================================================================== Thiel speakers are indeed demanding because of their low impedances. They tend to have minimum impedances of around 2 or 3 Ohms. There are many other amps under $1,000 that are similar to the Adcom and the B&K. Acurus A250 (250w into 8 ohms), Parasound 1200 (200w into 8 ohms), Rotel 990 (200w into 8 ohms). (slightly over 1k I think) These are all amps that can sustain continuous maximum power output into 4 Ohms, and can handle speakers which impedances curves dip down to 2 Ohms at some frequencies. You can't go wrong with any of these amps. Stereophile reported the smaller integrated power amp from Acurus rated at 100w to handle the Thiel 3.6 without difficulty. at the end, it is probably your personal taste that will end up being the deciding factor. In the $1,000 - $1,500 range, you might want to consider the Hafler 9300 (150w into 8 Ohms). There are also some amps rated around 100w that can continuously sustain a 2 Ohm impedance load. One such amp is the Aragon 2002. It is rated at 200w into 4 Ohms and 350w into 2 Ohms. It is obviously designed to deliver very high currents into very low impedance demanding speakers. It costs around $1,300. The more powerful model, Aragon 4004, delivers 200w, 400w and 750w into 8,4, and 2 Ohms; however, it costs about $1,800. In short, you can't go wrong with any of the amps mentioned. ======================================================================== I've had Thiel 3.5's for about 2-3 years now, with B&K amp, pre-amp, tuner, Cal Audio Labs Icon II CD machine. Love it. ======================================================================== I have the same speakers, I am currently using the Forte Model 4, 50 watts, class A. I would try the Muse 100 or even the PS Audio, long before the Touch ADcom which is basically mid-fi. ======================================================================== If you like, you should also look at the Forte 4 (50w/chn class A, very high current) Forte 6 (200w/chn, same exact amp as the 4 but running at class AB), Aragon 2004II (100w/chn. I have this.) I think Classe also makes thinga in the price and power range you want. Finally, you can also look into the Audio by van Alstine or Sound Value kits/sets: they sell high current MOSFET amps similar to Hafler designs with 100/200w /chn. Oh, also look at Hafler Transnova amps. Adcom and B&K are VERY popular, but they aren't the only thing in town. Finally, P.S. Audio has a Delta series amp that would also fit the bill. ======================================================================== I own the original Thiel 2.0 speakers, and have no problem driving them with a Bryston 2B 50 watt amp. A sales rep. told me that I could upgrade to the 2.2 without any problems. By the way, I tried a number of amps with the 2.0's, and the Bryston sounded the best. ======================================================================== I'd highly recommend Bryston in that range, that's what I have driving my Thiels. I've heard Bryston is a bit hard to find in the US, but they're quite plentiful in Canada. Their amps (4 or 5 models) all share the same basic circuit design, differing only in the power supply and output transistors. They range in power from apartment-size to gymnasium-size. :} I've heard the newer Thiels have lower impedances and draw a fair bit of current? - the Brystons are quite good in the current department. ======================================================================== Anyone interested in powerful amps, (especially for Thiel's), should check out the offerings from Exposure. For reasonable prices you can get some really good sound, especially in the low end. All of their power amplifiers have fully regulated power supply's, something usually not found in this price class, which IMHO, give them some really tight and powerful bass. Even the low power (50 watt) integrated (don't know the model number) (US $1,100.00) is very impressive in the low end, comparing favorably with the much more expensive offerings from Krell and Madrigal. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that the Exposure stuff is just as good as a Krell KSA-100S or Mark Levinson 29.5 ...but... for the money I don't think you can come any closer. I have auditioned many amps over the last year, and decided that I wanted the sonics that the Mark Levinson 23.5 could offer, and It's taken me awhile to save up my penny's. However, for someone shopping in the $2,500.00 and under market the Exposure amps should definitely be auditioned. My only reservation about the Exposure equipment is that it's British made, [OK - no flames here :^) it's just my patriotism showing], and if I can, I like to spend my money on American made stuff. I look at the high-end audio industry as one of the last where America is clearly in a leadership position from a *financial* standpoint, and I'd like to see it stay that way. All too often the great ideas come from this country and the manufacturing, with its associated financial rewards, are realized elsewhere. Again, don't get me wrong, what the folks at Exposure UK are doing is great, IMHO *no one* else is producing power amplifiers this good for this little money and we as consumers should reward this work with the highest compliment we can; our hard earned money!! My message here is for the American high-end manufactures; get your act together and produce equipment that sounds this good or better for a comparable price and keep the $$ flowing into our economy. ======================================================================== I'd add the Muse 100 or its latest incarnation to that list of under $1000 amps. I know a new 100 lists for $1200 but if you shop around you can get one for under $1000. I did 8>). ======================================================================== Also check out Carver TFM-55, or Acurus A250. The Acurus, especially, is extremely well-constructed, and both sound really good. ======================================================================== Thanks very much to everyone who replied, namely: reeve@xylogics.com ogiers@imec.be JCOBBS@AMERICAN.edu niran@cis.ohio-state.edu dlh34340@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu neilw@informix.com eginting@PINCALA.WARP.CS.CMU.edu cllum@amoco.com romain@pyramid.com elarson@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu shaik@expert.cc.purdue.edu tsai@fennel.Berkeley.edu SL45Z@cc.usu.edu ryo@foxfire.sps.mot.com Mitchell.Erblich@Eng.Sun.com adour@leland.Stanford.edu lapoint@ARL.ARMY.MIL san@bbn.com louvu@itsa.ucsf.edu arqmbsf@dow.on.doe.ca ken@isgtec.com mdc@chambers.cvm.uiuc.edu mteh@sage.cc.purdue.edu cftas@eiu.edu