Article: 2805 of rec.audio.high-end Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end Path: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!darwin.sura.net!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!info-high-audio-request From: sancese@cs.unibo.it (Silvio Sancese) Subject: Summary: Low-Cost Yet "Audiophile" Amp (long) Message-ID: <9204291815.AA09381@leporello.cs.unibo.it> Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1992 13:00:43 GMT Approved: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Lines: 194 Hi! Here is the summary of the replies I received from the net. I was asking for suggestions about an integrated amp in the ~US$700 price range. The responses focus on Creek, Adcom, NAD, Cyrus, B&K, Naim, Rotel, Musical Fidelity and AudioLab. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't decided yet, since I still have to begin my listening tour. Thanks to all the netters who helped me with their mail. Ciao. -=Silvio '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Silvio Sancese Internet: sancese@cs.unibo.it Computer Science Department Universita' di Bologna | "Tra il dire e il fare Italia | c'e' di mezzo 'e il'." | --- Elio ======================================== ======================================== From: "Andreas G. Yankopolus" Check out the Creek 4140. I've owned one for several months and use it to drive my Thiel CS1.2s. It is the only transistor amp for under $1250 I can stand listening to for any length of time. The sound is warm and relaxed with good soundstaging and bass. With a quality source and speakers, this little integrated amp will grab and hold your attention. Highly recommended. ======================================== From: al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman) For that kind of money ($700) you are going to get much better performance and versatility by going to a preamp & power amp. The Adcom's come to mind immediately. If you go with used gear you could get some VERY nice stuff. ======================================== From: Gary L Dare NAD 7240PE receiver. US$550 list (can be bought for $420 here in New York City). ======================================== From: GHGAHBG%BLEKUL11@icnucevm.cnuce.cnr.it (Werner) Hello there, having done some exams, I have now the time to give a decent reply to your question concerning amplifiers. >From the amps you listed, I know one very good (the Cyrus One, I have one) and from some others I've read a lot of reviews. The conclusions are distilled in the following list: Cyrus One -overall sound: quick, sharp, dynamic, (a bit too) upfront -line: no comment -phono mm: slightly worse imaging than line, noiseless, a bit more acid in the treble -phono mc: far worse imaging, electronic sounding... this should be no problem, it is perfectly feasible to use a mc-cartridge with output >0.3mV (5cm/s) without any noise in the mm input. That's what I do with my Denon DL-301 mc (and what I'm going to do with my new Audio Technica AT-OC9) -build quality: tremendous, a mini Krell -reliability: fine -partnering with other equipment: Cyrus One definitely favours high-quality sources of audiophile degree, so don't use it with a cheap turntable or a fast-food CD-player. The chosen speakers are important too, the best thing you can do is using a speaker with a slightly muted treble, that is forgiving on behalf of the slightly acid treble of the amp. When this point is OK, Cyrus is happy to play with far more expensive speakers. As far as I can see, the best partners are the Belgian Etude-speakers, Sonus Faber Minuetto, Magnepan, Mission 781 and perhaps Rogers, Celestion,... Arcam Alpha 3: -line: easy, unfatiguing -phono mm: sounds harder -general comment: Alpha is a fine, versatile amp (has tone-controls...) the Arcam brand should be guarantee for a high quality Musical Fidelity B1 MkII -line: superb -phono: bad -reliability: Musical Fidelity used to have a bad name Marantz PM-40 Special Edition -mc: confused -mm: fine -line: airy, spacious, slightly scratchy -good build quality, enormous power reserves Rotel RA-930 AX -mm: warm, bad stereo, soft (OK for cheap turntables) -line: sharp, clean, forward, detailled -not for high volumes -build quality: don't know, Rotel makes sometimes fine gear, sometimes trash Other recommended amps are: -Rotel RA-820BX4 and RA-840BX4: the older audiophile Rotels -Dual CV-5600: a Rotel amp in a more versatile jacket -Marantz PM-30SE: budget version of 40SE -Marantz PM-80: real high-end class A amp, drives any speaker, sounds like Krell ======================================== From: KJS @ucsb.mcl You can check out the Adcom GFA-535 or 545. They run for around $350 and $500 respectively, I think. They might be a little more. Adcoms are known for their excellent bass, but they tend to be forward sounding, with a hard treble. I have a GFA-555, and I am satisfied (although I still want that Rowland Model 9...:-) ). It's mated with Mirage speakers, which also have good bass, plus excellent imaging, but with a wispy treble, so I guess they kind of balance each other out. You can also try the B & K ST-140, which is around the $400 range. It has a warmer sound than the Adcoms, but the bass is a little mushy. It does have a more natural sounding midrange, though. ======================================== From: wood@uk.tele.nokia.fi (Peter Wood) Hi! I own a Creek 4140s2, which is a slightly bigger brother to the 4040. It should still be within your $700 budget, as it costs 240 pounds here in the UK. I like it, obviously, because I bought it. It has an open, detailed, musical sound. A colleague of mine has a Cambridge P25, which is not as good. It portrays a rather flat, lifeless, compressed view of the music. This is true of all its inputs, but its phono stage is particularly dull, if that's important to you. I don't know what your musical priorities are. If you want sweet music rather than volume, then I recommend that you go listen to a Naim NAIT amp. It'll be just at the top of your budget range. It doesn't go very loud, but its sound quality is ahead of almost any other amplifiers at the price. ======================================== From: pooch@leland.Stanford.EDU (William Poucher) I would strongly suggest checking out Rotel integrated amps before going with NAD. I chose Rotel over NAD in the same price range, the Rotel having better transparency and detailing, with a fuller and more robust sound. ======================================== From: engp1186@nuscc.nus.sg (Won-Soon Lau) $700 is not a small figure, it is equivalent to Singapore $1.2k at the current rate. - Mission Cyrus One Cyrus Two ---------- S $900 (US $550) It can be upgraded to 85W output if you add the PBX power unit. - Musical Fidelity B1 MKII .^^^^^ Don't get this, the other model, B100 --------------- S $1,100 (US $630) or A100 --------------- S $1,400 (US $800) are the better models. Personally, I used the B100 driving a pair of Rogers LS-6a box speakers. I also like to recommend the AudioLab 8000a Mk II which has a very good review at its range. The sound is not as warm as the B100 or A100 but is more detail. So its all depend on what you like to hear. Thanks to all those who responded to my request for amplification info. I still haven't bought a power amp, but I'm leaning towards a used Adcom GFA-545II if I can find one. For those of you who requested that I post/email my results, here they are: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stereophile's reccommended components (power amps): B&K ST-140: $500. 105 wpc. High class D. Difficulty driving speakers with less than 8 ohm impedance. Deep but non-powerful and muddy bass. B&K ST-202: $650. Similar to ST-140, but more power. Adcom GFA-535II: $350. 60wpc. Excellent sound quality for the price, Class D. Adcom GFA-555II: $800. 200wpc. Excellent bass, good imaging and depth. Class C. Adcom GFA-545II $500, 100wpc, not listed in Stereophile's RC Parasound HCA-800II: $450, 100wpc. Slightly grainy treble. "More than a touch of high-end sound", Class D. Parasound HCA-2200: $1500, many wpc. Overly heavy and sluggish bass, not listed in Stereophile's RC. (integrated amps:) Creek 4140: ~$500. 50wpc. Class D. Naim: ~$900. 21wpc. Lightweight bass. Class C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Personal impressions: GFA-545II with GFP-565 preamp: Good imaging, clear and detailed bass. GFA-545II with Denon DAP-5500 preamp: As above, but more vivid, realistic sound! GFA-555II : Almost identical sound to the 545II, just higher rated power. Denon PMA-860 integrated amp ($450, 80wpc): Bass not as detailed, imaging still good, but not -as- good as 1st setup. Nakamichi Receiver 1 ($950): Certainly not as good as the Denon. At first, I thought Adcom might not be of very sturdy construction, or be very good with demanding loads or continuous high power output. But the review I read in "Stereo Review," a consumer-ish magazine which seems to focus more on durability than on sound gave the GFA-555II excellent comments for having far more power than you'd ever want to use, and being virtually (electronically at least) unbreakable. Buy used. If it's a quality brand and it works after being used, it will probably continue to work. It's much cheaper. Just make sure there aren't any minor, barely noticable glitches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Seth Bradley Subject: RE: Inexpensive high-end amp Are you willing to buy by mail? In the latest issue of Stereo Review (I can bring it in tomorrow if you like) one of the mail order houses is closing out a Rockford amp/preamp combo for $699. This is less than 1/2 retail. Its high quality equipment, with the amp putting out something like 350 WPC. IMO, it would "blow away" the Denon.... -- Seth J. Bradley Internet: sbradley@scic.intel.com UUCP: uunet!scic.intel.com!sbradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Peterman Subject: RE: Denon DAP-5500 and Amp advice Humm. I might be talked out of my Dennon POA-1500. This is a 150WPC amp, very well made, about 8 years old. VERY pretty with big meters and wood case. Very solid sounding. It was $695 new - I'd take $240.. }How does it do with low impedance loads? Pretty well. My Infinity 2.5's get down to 1.7 ohms and it was OK driving them, but lacked a bit of punch. I got the amp used a few years ago when I allready had a Hafler 500 driving them, and I relegated the POA-1500 to the office system, with LWE I's, which it was very happy with. I now use a Moscode 600 on the "main" system. Got it used for $500! }Are the inputs balanced? Unbalanced? Both? Just unbalanced.. }How does it sound/what is it comparable to/what will you replace it with? Well I actually went to a Yamaha R-9 receiver which is NOT as good an amp , but what the hey...it's just my office set.. }Class A or B operation? I am pretty sure it is AB - because it's idle current draw is only about 60 watts. }Frequency response, distortion...whatever measurements are available in the }manual? No manual, but the specs from the 1984 Stereo Review Guide are as follows: " Non-NFB, direct-A amp features power-on self-diagnostics display, power meters, switchable infrasonic filter, wood trim, all DC construction, speaker switching. Rated output 150 + 150 WPC into 8 ohms, 240 + 240 WPC into 4 ohms. THD .005% at rated power, IMD .002%, slew rate 400 V/usec, power bandwidth 5hz-100khz (THD .015%), S/N 124 Db, weight 48.4 pounds. }Have you had any problems with it? Burned out the light bulbs over the meters - I replaced them with 10,000 hour instrument bulbs that should NOT have any problems again. }I've been considering new or used B&K, Adcom, Parasound in the <$500 price }range - but at that price...can you offer comparisons between the Denon and any }of the recent models from these brands? I had a GFA-555 (original) and it was quite good in the bass, but a bit harsh in the treble. The MKII version is supposed to be better - and you can find a used MKII in the $500 range. I'd give the nod to the newer Adcom, but at half the price, I'd be hard pressed to make that comparison...I doubt you'll find anything at the under $300 price with this kind of power and sound ver easily. Of course the shipping is going to be a hassle, and somewhat expensive - probably $15 or so.. }I take it that it has 2 RCA inputs, 4 speaker outputs (A and B), and a power }switch. What other connections or controls are there? Is there a gain }control? LOTS more than that. 2 RCA inputs per channel, one direct, one through a high cut filter to get rid of high frequency garbage. Both gold plated. Also input level controls (on the back) for each channel and the switch for the infrasonic (low filter) circuit. There's also a voltage selector for different mains voltages. } What is the power-up self diagnostic display? (from the Stereo }Review). Are there warning lights for when it's being driven too hard? Both }speaker ouputs can be active at the same time, right (interested in bi-wiring }whatever speakers I get)? The unit at power up does a check of it's protection circuits, and the indicator lights show this test of the temperature circuit, the left & then right protection circuits, and THEN the unit powers up completely and the main meter lights come on. It's pretty neat. Yes you can easily run both speaker outputs at the same time by pressing both speaker selector switches, and each set of outputs is heavy duty "5 way" connectors. Alan L. Peterman (503)-684-1984 hm al@qiclab.scn.rain.com It's odd how as I get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Karth Subject: RE: Inexpensive high-end amp John, I have in mint condition a NEC A10mkII integrated amp. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but NEC produced them for about two years. It's truly audiophile quality. There are NO tone controls, but lots of switching flexibility. I'm extremely impressed with the construction and design quality of this amp. It weighs a virtual ton (about 50-60 lbs.). If you get tired of listening to it you could weld with it as it's output current (not wattage) is rated at over 50 amps!. It's an extremely clean, super low noise, super low THD & IMD. The numbers are meaningless if it doesn't sound good. I'm in no hurry to sell the amp so if you're interested, take your time and look for reiviews written about it, etc. NEC couldn't afford to produce such an amp and sell it in this country any longer without asking a medium 4 digit price for it. Their audio reputation is not in the US what it is in Japan. I've had it for several years and only recently (because of busy schedule, etc.) decided to forgo audiophile-ism for infrared remote convenience. Back in the good old days (before CD), I spent many hours each week tweeking and re-tweeking VTA, Azumith, Anti-skate bias, & etc. on my turntable. It was nothing then to get up from the listening position and adust the loudness. Now that time has flown the coop for me, I throw in a CD, and push buttons on the remote. Ahh, for the good old days when life was simpler... Enough reminiscing. I would like to get $300 OBO for the unit which as I say, looks, feels and sounds like new. Let me know if you're interested. Regards, Kevin W. Karth (503) 297-6728 h (503) 627-6528 w or email "kevink@tv.tv.tek.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: davies Subject: RE: Inexpensive high-end amp You might want to try a Tandberg 3012A Integrated Amp. You can pick one up from Tandberg directly for around $600 last time I checked. I love mine and it has absolutely no problems driving my KEF 104.2s at 4ohms. Here's there address and phone number: Tandberg Educational, Inc. Orchard Ridge Corporate Park Building Two, Fields Lane Brewster, New York 10509 (914) 277-3320 (telephone) (914) 277-3995 (telefax) Good luck with your search. brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Richard A. Huff" Subject: RE: Inexpensive High End amps Hi John, I just read your postings to rec.audio.high-end. Have you considered buying a used power amp? Used equipment seems to run about one-half of the current list price. Then again, I find it exciting to run around listening to the latest gear! :-) Anyway, after upgrading my system to Classe Audio electronics, my Adcom 545 is now for sale. Earlier I had it modified by Professional Mod Service, Inc. for $300. (This outfit works through the Audio Advisor.) In addition to their normal $200 stuff, (upgrading components and biasing the unit higher), I asked them to increase the input impedance to 44 Kohm or so, and the overall gain was increased by 6 db. Finally, they installed a set of Edison Price Music Posts. I'm asking $400 for the amp, including its box, literature, etc. Before switching to Classe Audio gear (awesome stuff, at a steep price), I used Electronic Visionary System's "Ultimate Attenuators" --- passive preamp for ~$175 new --- to drive the amp. The amp in turn drove my Vandersteen 2C speakers, which I still have and LOVE! IMHO most speakers really screw up the bass, either providing too little or bloating it all out of proportion; the Vandersteen's seem to get it just right --- it sounds natural. Still, I have not heard Thiel's speakers. Nor have I heard the mk II editions of Adcom's gear. So I don't know how my amp compares to them. But compared to the 545 mk I, my amp sounds quite a bit cleaner in the mids & highs. And the extra gain means that any good cd player / passive preamp combination can drive it to full power. Are you interested? -------- The 545 has a pair of RCA input jacks. Mine has been modified to employ Tiffany plugs made from some funny silver-looking metal that I cannot recall; this is part of the standard Pro Mod Service package. The 545 has 1 set of outputs, not two. The Edison Price Music Posts on my amp are oversized and can EASILY clamp down on two sets of speaker cables --- even the big audiophile ones. In fact, that's what I was doing with my Vandersteen speakers. Just get out the largest slotted screwdriver you can find and torque those posts! :-) If you find an Adcom with its stock posts you will find it difficult to tighten down the posts, as they are very cheap plastic things. But you can always install the Edison Price posts yourself; they cost $40 for a stereo set. I'm not handy with a soldering iron, so I had Pro Mod do this for me. Yes, the original Adcom 545 had a harsh treble. I used the amp for a couple of years before the mod, and then I used it for another year or so before upgrading to Classe Audio. So I have a good idea of the before/after picture. The mod greated reduced the treble harshness. It also cleaned up the midrange. I don't know about the bass effects because I am more sensitive to mid/high distortion --- unless the bass is really out of wack due to poor speakers. I suspect that you could buy a used 545II or 555II for the prices you are looking at. Try getting Hi-Fi Classics' current list of used gear. I found their prices reasonable, and they buy used gear at better prices than other dealers I called; although you can do better by selling your used gear privately, which is what I'm hoping to do with this amp.... :-) Earlier last year I sold my EVS preamp, along with a few other things. Hi-Fi Classics in NY (advertises in Stereophile's classified ads) took it for $150 or so. I think they were giving me a good price on that unit in order to entice me to buy their Tice Power Block. The EVS units are pretty cheap new, and come in several different configurations. You can just call EVS directly --- they're in Berkeley. Stereophile reviewed the stuff a year ago or so. I found the Ultimate Attenuator to be more transparent than my Adcom 555. (Yep, I have already sold the 555 too.) Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jay Subject: RE: Denon DAP-5500 and Amp advice Go with the B&K. I've owned a B&K St-140 for 7 years now and there isn't anything on the market under $800 that can touch it. Like all sub $1000 amps, it doesn't have power for real bass but the soundstage and imaging are truly unbelievable for a $500 amp. Good luck... Jay ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Liao Subject: RE: Denon DAP-5500 and Amp advice John, You might want to take a look at counterpoint SA-100 amp. It's a hybrid design with 4 tubes. I currently have one. I like it a lot. It's good for the $ you spent. Listed for $1300, I got it for $900 brand new. I recently saw it listed for $700 used. SA-100 is class AB, I believe it's running at class A except 50-100 watts it's on class B. It shouldn't have problem driving most of the dynamic speakers. Jason ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Brewer Subject: RE: Denon DAP-5500 and Amp advice Try Rotel... I have been impressed with it. This may suprise many people, but it is my experiance. Doing in home (as appossed to in store) listen I found Proton integrated amps to be MUCH better than Denon integrated amps. This comparison was made about 6 months ago, when my room-mate (then he was my room-mate) wanted to get an integrated amp. It was between the 80-watt "Optical Class A" Denon and the Proton D540. The Proton produced much more controlled, and stronger bass than the Denon. I would rate the Denon as slightly better than average consumer equipment. The Proton is bridgeable, can be used as a power amp, pre-amp, or integrated amp. My old room-mate is now trying to sale the Proton so he can buy Rotel. (His posting is on rec.audio) My advice to you would be to offer him about $140-150 for the Proton and then go find a good pre-amp with your left over money. The pre-amp is the weak section of the Proton, and I would consider the power amp a steal at that price. Plus this would be a great way to buy a good pre-amp now, with a decent power amp, and then up grade the power amp later... Oh, and the Proton can be bought new for around $200, as it has been discontinued for 2 years. But some mail-order houses still have them in stock. (My room-mate got his from Crutchfield.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alec Yin Subject: RE: Inexpensive high-end amp A classic model: Luxman LV-105U. List for $1000, but I think the street price is around $750. Also, I'll be interested in the response you get. I am getting a pair of Apogee Centaur.. Thanks Alec ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: arc!frank@apple.com Subject: RE: Denon DAP-5500 and Amp advice I am selling my B&K ST140 power amp for $350 and B&K PRO-5 preamp for $300. Both mint condition, original owner w/ box and manuals. -- Regards, + Frank Tsang | ^++^ "__" + + (408)-727-3357 #261# (W) | @ oo @ @ .. @ + Frank + (510)-791-0658 (H) | ([]) (()) + + e-mail: frank@advansoft.com | Heeelllloooo + ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J Paschel Subject: RE: Inexpensive high-end amp I own a Creek 4140 and am very happy with it. I listened to NAD and Denon at the time and they didn't even come close to the Creek. Presently, my partner is buying a Naim NAIT integrated amp and I have never in my life heard anything this good under $1500. The price is a little above your budget, @ $ 895, but the NAIT, as much as I hate to admit it, blows the Creek away. The NAIT is the most revealing piece of equipment i have ever heard. Though it lacks the power to drive massive speakers in a huge room, it is more than adequate for most home applications. If nothing else, you should at least give it a listen sometime. Good luck and let me know what you decide.\ Jarrett ------------------------------------------------------------------------