"The Many Moods of Vince Daniels" Radio Show, February 17, 2007 http://Stop-Narconon.org/StoneHawk Segment 1 & 2 Audio & YouTube Video Segment 1 [Theme song, announcer introduces the show. Vince and Kim chit-chat about The Beastie Boys song playing.] VINCE DANIELS: It's Kim Johnson who's joining me to co-host here indefinitely here on this show. She hosts a show of her own called Overground Railroad Sundays from 1:00 to 2:00 here on KCAA. KIM JOHNSON: I already want to call you Vinnie. [Laughs] VINCE DANIELS: Do, do. KIM JOHNSON: Reminds me of the character on Welcome Back, Kotter. I love Vinnie Barbarino. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, yeah. Travolta's character, speaking of Scientology, which we are going to speaking a lot of. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah, that's right. VINCE DANIELS: Starting in the next half hour, as a matter of fact. I wanted to tell you, first of all, that Scientology is behind the Stone Hawk Narconon drug rehabilitation center. What we're going to be talking about is a center that as, the couple that runs it, I know that they just passed out, you know, they just made the nominations for the Oscars, but the couple that runs this Stone Hawk center in Battle Creek, Michigan, I can't speak so much for Kate Wickstrom because I just started to talk to her. She seems like a nice lady. She'll be coming on the show here at 12:30 this afternoon and I've promised her some time. But her husband Per Wickstrom, I mean, this guy is next year's independent movie. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, I mean, he has not been gracious with me at all, has not wanted to talk to me at all, and anything I have come to find out about this Stone Hawk I've had to find out from people who have been there, and we're going to hear from them today. I mean, this place, we're talking about, okay, they have a sauna there for example and there's ants in the sauna. KIM JOHNSON: Ants in the sauna. VINCE DANIELS: Rodents. I mean, they have to kill mice with their shoes and throw them down the toilet. KIM JOHNSON: Do ants like saunas? VINCE DANIELS: They do at this place. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah? VINCE DANIELS: They have to kill mice with their feet and then throw the mice, you know, with their shoes and throw the mice down the toilet. Speaking of the toilet bowl, okay, it is so cold in that bathroom over there that often the water in the bowl turns to blocks of ice and they have to-- KIM JOHNSON: Really. VINCE DANIELS: Yes. You go in there and you see a big--imagine urine and everything and a block of ice. KIM JOHNSON: How does that really work? [Laughs] VINCE DANIELS: I don't know, it freezes, all the urine and everything in there just freezes into a block of ice. There have been three people who apparently have gotten abscesses from spider bites the size of golf balls, one bitten in the crotch area. KIM JOHNSON: Oh! VINCE DANIELS: There's like mildew in the bathrooms. KIM JOHNSON: Oh! VINCE DANIELS: There's cigarette burns all over the carpet. And you would think that for the money that people pay to go to this place they'd be able to afford upkeep. KIM JOHNSON: No ants in the sauna. [Laughter] VINCE DANIELS: Or ants in the sauna, for that matter. Yeah, I mean, this is what this--and we're going to hear all kinds of stories of--I mean, right there we could do a show just on the unsanitary conditions of Stone Hawk. KIM JOHNSON: It sounds very nasty. VINCE DANIELS: There's even more nasty going on over there and we're going to hear just some incredible stories here after 11:30 this morning. In fact, we're going to welcome the fiancée and the mother of a couple of people that are in the center right now, one of which is actually getting ready to be released tomorrow and one who was released last week who's coming on the show today. His name is Dave Bowser. He'll be on after noon. We're going to hear from his fiancée Kimberly Darr after 11:30. Sheri Koenig is also going to be here. Her fiancé, Daryl, is being released tomorrow, and we'll also hear from Lynn Casey who is the mother of Melissa Casey. We'll also hear from Melissa after noon. In fact, Melissa and Dave were just--I mean, Melissa just got out last night so she's got some stories that are fresh. Dave Bowser has been out for about a week; he's got some stories. And we're going to hear what it's like for them and then also for their loved ones on the outside, what they've had to through. But what I really wanted to do, because I was thinking about this, Kim. I mean, this is a drug rehab center. When I think about some of the things that they do over there, I have to wonder, and I have a guest that's joining us here for this. His name is Dee Ward. Dee, by the way, is the executive officer of Newport Harbor Drug Rehabilitation. Dee, great to have you this morning. [Dee Ward talks about how Newport Harbor Recovery in Costa Mesa, California is not ruled by fear. Clients are nurtured and built up and treated with respect and care through the first 30-60-90 days of treatment. There is a Narconon facility nearby, on the beach at 18th Street. They get quite a few people from there. Newport Harbor follows a 12-Step program and has no sauna except at the 12-Hour Fitness Center, doesn't prescribe niacin. Their 90-day residential treatment program runs $15,000 which includes therapist, groups, transportation to meeting inside and outside the facility, food, 24-hour gym membership. They believe in three-pronged approach: client abstains from drugs and alcohol; needs to eat properly; needs to sleep and get healthy. Some clients are close to death when they come in and Dee says they nurture them to health with education, the gym, food, sleeping properly. They don't push the body to the get-well-quick theory because the recidivism rate is higher after a 30-day program. Recovery is for the rest of their lives. Average age of clients is 21 to 35. Vince asks if the military approach necessary for unruly people; Dee says authoritarian rule makes them revolt. You can't fight fire with fire. Minor punishments are like TV gets turned off earlier, wash dishes, vacuum carpet. Group sessions cover relapse prevention, group therapies, individual therapies, physiological effects of alcohol and drugs on the body, back-to- basics living in the home, work search, addressing underlying reason for drinking such as anger management, sex addition. Newport Harbor follows up with extended care. The longer a client stays in a program the better the success rate. Vince asks about reading materials. They follow AA literature; clients keep a journal. They don't take a lot of court-ordered people. Newport Harbor has been around 15 years so they're well-known but half the clients come in through Internet advertising. They have no salesmen selling their facility. Nine people full-time on staff, plus part-timers and alumni help out. Phone number is 949-645-5775; e-mail NewportHarborRecovery.com. Go to commercial. Vince says it's 25 to the hour, introduces Kim Johnson again, mentions conversation with Dee Ward of Newport Harbor Recovery, positive approach.] VINCE DANIELS: And right now we're going to find out about another drug rehabilitation center which we have reported here on the show before. In fact, the very first time that we ever talked about this was last September when I had on here as a guest Greg Beha whose son attended Stone Hawk drug rehabilitation, a Narconon drug rehabilitation center in Battle Creek and he came on. Basically we were doing a show about Scientology and I had no idea myself at the time that Narconon and Scientology were even connected. Greg came on to tell us the story about how his son Tory went through the program and basically when he found out that it was--the first time he heard the name L. Ron Hubbard mentioned and he made the connection that, wait a minute, this is just a front for Scientology, and he started talking about this all over the place. They took him basically, drove him to a cheap motel miles away from the center and put ten bucks in his pocket and just sent him fending for himself. KIM JOHNSON: Really? VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. We had the president of Narconon International on with him that day and we all sat there and said, "Well, what are you going to do about it? The buck stops at your desk." Well, a couple of months went by and nothing had happened and so we were going to have Greg on here to give us a progress update. Well, two days before he was to fly out here to California to be on the show, lo and behold, he gets a settlement and has to sign a gag order. What do you know? KIM JOHNSON: What do you know? VINCE DANIELS: And then can't make it to be on the show because he signed a gag order. Well, that's not the case with the people that we have here over the next hour. I want to introduce all of them and I'll tell you who we're going to be hearing from in this next half hour, between now and the noon news. First of all, I want to welcome Sheri Koenig who is joining us on the line. KIM JOHNSON: Hello, Sheri. VINCE DANIELS: Hi, Sheri, welcome. SHERI KOENIG: Hello. Hi, Kim. Hi, Vince. VINCE DANIELS: Your fiancé, Daryl, is actually still in Stone Hawk as we speak. SHERI KOENIG: Yes, he's been there for 35 days now. VINCE DANIELS: And he's getting out? SHERI KOENIG: Tomorrow. VINCE DANIELS: Tomorrow, okay. And also on the line with us there from-- you're all from Michigan, are you not, every one of you that's with us? Sheri, you're from Michigan? SHERI KOENIG: No, I'm from Maryland. VINCE DANIELS: You're from Maryland, okay. Kimberly Darr, you're with us right now, and then also your fiancé, David Bowser. KIMBERLY DARR: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: Are you guys from Michigan? KIMBERLY DARR: No. Actually we're from North Ohio. VINCE DANIELS: You're from Ohio. A lot of you, I guess, from that area actually end up going to Stone Hawk. A lot of people from Ohio end up there and, of course, people from Michigan. I also want to welcome Melissa Casey and your mother, Lynn Casey, and where are you at this morning? MELISSA or LYNN: We're in Michigan. VINCE DANIELS: You're in Michigan and near Battle Creek, near the center? MELISSA or LYNN: Actually we're about 54 miles away. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Now joining us here in an hour, Kate Wickstrom is going to be calling into the program. She wanted to call after she listened to all this and make a statement and we had promised that she can do that. But you guys all have basically--and she won't by any means have the last word. Patty Pieniadz will be joining us at a quarter to the next hour, actually the last 15 minutes of the show, and she ran a Narconon center for a long time. So it's good. We're going to put a lot of stuff out there today. I want to talk about this place called Stone Hawk. The e-mails that you have all sent me have some pretty damning stuff in them and I want to start with you, Sheri, because you had sent me some unbelievable things here. I mean-- SHERI KOENIG: Where to begin? KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: The carpet has cigarette burns all over the place and so does the pool table. Take it from there. SHERI KOENIG: I'd like to back up to the first mistake that the intake counselor had made. Great salesman, great salesman. Everywhere I called had led me back to Stone Hawk so naturally I thought this was a perfect place for Daryl. We were told the fee was $30,000. About a couple of days after Daryl being in there-- VINCE DANIELS: Thirty thousand dollars. SHERI KOENIG: Thirty thousand dollars. VINCE DANIELS: The other guy before was only charging 15 and he stated-- KIM JOHNSON: That's $15,000 for a 90-day program. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. SHERI KOENIG: Yup, and we weren't told any of that. We fought and fought. We eventually got only $2,500 back so we were still charged the $27,500. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. SHERI KOENIG: After getting there, we had heard that in the initial detox process, about 90 to 95% of the counselors there who don't have any medical or social work degrees are about the age of 18 to 25, so they're the ones that get to determine whether or not you get to move on. Daryl got out of detox three days and this is when they found out the conditions of the next facility that they move you to. He said there are absolutely no--there's mildew all over the place covering the walls. The exhaust fans in the bathrooms aren't working so the paint is just peeling off. KIM JOHNSON: Ugh. SHERI KOENIG: Half the times the toilets are a block of ice; the cigarette burns, like you have said. They were so disgusted. You're stuck in another room with three other people so there's four total. They were disgusted with the way their room looked. They had to beg for cleaners, in which case they finally got them and cleaned the room from top to bottom. Upon doing that, they found their mattresses do not have plastic covers on them. Half of them are ripped. There's wires--Daryl wasn't sure if they were live or not--that are underneath his bed. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God! SHERI KOENIG: He said the trash is just lining up behind the kitchen back doors. It's just piling over the dumpsters, spilling over. KIM JOHNSON: Oh, that's a whole lot of money for a dump. [Laughter] VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. Thirty thousand--twenty-seven-five for a dump? My God. [Laughter] We should say, too, that you are speaking for Daryl who, of course, can't be here today. SHERI KOENIG: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: But he'll be out tomorrow and he's been in for how long now? SHERI KOENIG: Thirty-five days. VINCE DANIELS: Thirty-five days. SHERI KOENIG: And tomorrow we're going to get him out. VINCE DANIELS: Now, 35 days and who's paying for this? SHERI KOENIG: His parents have split it. They have got half of it from credit cards and the other half from a home equity loan. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. SHERI KOENIG: So they put themselves in debt. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: Where are they? Okay, I would think--because we have a parent here, you know, joining us today. Lynn Casey is here and I've talked, in fact, I spoke with your parent, I spoke with his mother a couple of days ago, to Prudy Bowser. They're all over this. What about Daryl's parents? SHERI KOENIG: [Laughs] Daryl's father is coming around but his mom and stepfather are just saying this is tough love. We don't care what conditions you're in. We don't care what drugs-- VINCE DANIELS: Tough love? SHERI KOENIG: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: This goes beyond-- KIM JOHNSON: It's a sanitary issue. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, this is a sanitary issue, and not only that, but let's just really back up on this one here. You were telling me that there might be some sexual abuse going on in this place. SHERI KOENIG: Oh, can I tell the story [inaudible]? VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. SHERI KOENIG: [Laughs] After your initial detox, you go into some course work. It's called Control, Confront, Communicate. It's supposed to teach you how to control yourself in different situations. VINCE DANIELS: It sounds complicated. [Laughter] SHERI KOENIG: The main thing is they have a training routine and you can find it on all Scientology pages. You sit in a hard chair across from another student, your twin, knees are just about touching and you up to--you start out at five minutes each but you go to two hours with your eyes closed sitting perfectly still and then two hours with your eyes open. Now, during this time they have another thing called bull-baiting where one of the instructors will sit and scream obscenities in your ear, tell you you are nothing but a junkie. They've even gone so far as the instructors put their hands in their pants, play with different things in there, and then they take their hands out and stick it under Daryl's nose and he's still expected not to move. VINCE DANIELS: They grab your groin? KIM JOHNSON: Did I really catch that? I'm like taking a sip of coffee and I'm having to like-- VINCE DANIELS: They grab your groin? SHERI KOENIG: No, they grab their own. The instructors will stand in front of you and play with themselves and then take their hand out of their pants, put it under your face and you're still not allowed to move or you flunk and you have to do this all over again. VINCE DANIELS: Okay, wait a minute. Now, this is clearly a violation of the law. SHERI KOENIG: Exactly. KIM JOHNSON: That's repulsive. VINCE DANIELS: This place--yeah. This would, I mean, I don't think this is done--this isn't even done in the military. This isn't done in the Marines! SHERI KOENIG: I wouldn't think so. [Laughter] VINCE DANIELS: My God! SHERI KOENIG: Daryl thought it was a part of the natural course until all this stuff started happening. VINCE DANIELS: Well, I want to talk to you a little bit because you're on the other--basically your communication with your fiancé, Daryl, was what, through e-mails and cell phone calls? SHERI KOENIG: They're not allowed e-mails and they're allowed on the phone but not their own cell phone. They have to use a calling card to call home. KIM JOHNSON: Are there guards? I mean, you're just not allowed to leave? SHERI KOENIG: It's a completely voluntary place so he can leave but these guards are a part of the problem. They will even sell drugs inside. They bring alcohol to the rooms. They'll guard when other people want to have their room so they can have sex and they're supposed to sign sex waivers when they go in there that they won't partake in any activities. VINCE DANIELS: Sex waivers? [Laughter] SHERI KOENIG: Yeah. Daryl had to sign one that said he will not do any sexual activity whatsoever. VINCE DANIELS: Yet they'll bait him. SHERI KOENIG: Exactly. VINCE DANIELS: Okay, now, when you wrote me a couple of days ago, Sheri, you were telling me that your Daryl had a fever, a 102-degree fever. SHERI KOENIG: A hundred and two. He had to see the doctor three times who, every time he came walking in, pretended that he was on the phone. Finally he said, "I need to have my temperature taken." The nurse took it and said, "Oh, I guess you really do have a problem." VINCE DANIELS: Wow. SHERI KOENIG: Instead of sending him back to his room with antibiotics that "he'll get when they come to the center," they made him go sit in the sauna for five more hours. VINCE DANIELS: I mean, what gets me about it is-- KIM JOHNSON: That's unhealthy just even--I mean, I read the sauna signs at the pool like don't go in if you're pregnant, don't stay in--you're not supposed to stay in those things too long. SHERI KOENIG: No, not long. KIM JOHNSON: It's not healthy. VINCE DANIELS: You were telling me the story of a gal--we really can't mention her name--but wasn't there somebody recently who was pregnant that just got out of the program? SHERI KOENIG: Yes. They had missed her pregnancy. KIM JOHNSON: Wow, really. SHERI KOENIG: They supposedly take a physical and blood tests and, oops, I guess they forgot that test. KIM JOHNSON: Oh, wow. VINCE DANIELS: And she had to terminate her pregnancy. SHERI KOENIG: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God. Oh, my God. Kimberly Darr, welcome. It's good to have you here today. KIMBERLY DARR: Hi, Vinnie. Thanks for having us. VINCE DANIELS: And when you reached out to me a week ago yesterday, you were beside yourself on the e-mail. In fact, I had to read it over about three times because it sound--I mean, it was written like somebody that was just emotional. And finally, our mutual friend Barbara Schwartz up in San Diego wrote to me and gave me the condensed version of what you were trying to communicate. You just were--you couldn't handle--you just couldn't handle it anymore. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, the whole thing is an emotional rollercoaster. I mean, from the very beginning when you're dealing with somebody in your family or a loved one that has an addiction problem, when they come to the point in their life where they're begging for help, and I was with his mom went online and did some phone calls trying to find the best place for him. He wanted in patient where people were serious about recovery and long-term goals. And so, it's an emotional rollercoaster from the very beginning and that's where Narconon got us. I mean, they hook, line and sinker, everything that we needed to hear. I mean, you're crying. David talked to one of the intake guys, actually oddly enough, the same person that Daryl spoke with, and you know, David felt like he really had a connection with this guy. He had the same drug addiction that David had. He understood him so well and told David, "You need to get here. This is the place for you," and made him all of these promises. On January 2nd in the evening, we drove up there to drop him off and his mother and I and David walked in and, you know, there's a reception area or a big atrium and it looked pretty decent. And then they took us in and sat down and, you know, started telling us about the program and the one-on-one counseling and how, "Oh, you're going to be getting letters from David. He's going to want to make restitution. He's going to want to make things right." And so, from the very beginning, it's all very emotional. And once we dropped him off it was like thank God, you know, we were finally getting the help that we need. Well, two days later I found the first lie. You know, Jeff had said he's going to be in withdrawal. It's automatic. Even though he's not doing drugs now, he's going to be in withdrawal but he'll be able to call you at 9:00 every night for ten minutes, and it's monitored but then you can see how he's doing. So we dropped him off Tuesday night. I didn't hear from him all week so I was thinking, oh, no, what has happened to him? Is he sick? Is he going through really bad withdrawal that I didn't know? So I ended up calling up there and they're like, "Oh, no, he can't talk to you. He can't talk to you until he's out of withdrawal." But he didn't get out till Saturday so I didn't hear from him till Saturday, so it was so emotional during that time. And then when I finally did hear from him, he seemed like he was doing good. You know, he hadn't been there very long and they had moved him into the "Court of Pals," so to speak, in with the group of other students, as they call them. And at that point I started being able to talk to him every night for a few minutes, and the first couple of days he started telling me about these classes that he was going in and then none of them was drug related. I mean, none of it was build your self-esteem. None of it was make right choices. VINCE DANIELS: Tell us about some of the reading materials. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, my gosh. I didn't--I feel bad now because I didn't believe him at first. He was like, "This is Scientology." I said what do you mean? He said, "Everything, all of the course work, all of the books, every piece of literature in here, is written by L. Ron Hubbard." KIM JOHNSON: Wow. KIMBERLY DARR: And I said you're kidding me. And he goes, "No, we're in these things called training routines," and again like Sheri was saying, they sit, you know, knee to knee staring at each other for, I think David said the most he got up to was three hours. And when you think about just sitting still, you know, hey, that sounds bad, but you can't take a deep breath. That's moving to them. So you can't fidget. You can't fidget from one cheek to the other. You have to sit completely still for up to three hours. And at anytime when you-- VINCE DANIELS: You can't flinch, you can't blink or anything? KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, no. You can't scratch, you can't flinch, you can't raise your shoulders during a deep breath or they just say, "Flunk." KIM JOHNSON: So drive you crazy. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, my gosh. David is like, "This is a game. This is a game. You have to play by their rules or they come down hard on you, because if you refuse to do any of it, they just keep you there [inaudible] you all the time." VINCE DANIELS: Why are we playing games with something as serious as drug addiction? What the hell? What are they running over there? SHERI KOENIG: You're not even allowed to talk about drugs. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. They say that, you know, that was another promise. He is going to be in the right environment. Well, after two days he's calling me. After two days out of withdrawal, he called me. He woke me up at 2, 3:00 in the morning, 15 people got kicked out. They were drinking and smoking crack and I'm like what? VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God. KIMBERLY DARR: And apparently some of the guards were involved in that. I'm like, you're kidding me. VINCE DANIELS: Now, the day that you e-mailed me, David wanted to come home. Dave, he was ready to come home. KIMBERLY DARR: He was ready to come home and I had done enough research that I thought, you know what? This is not healthy for him. After the bull-baiting stories that I heard, after the conditions in the toilet, you know, frozen, after the mice, after roommate after roommate, roommate coming and going, I thought, you know, we made a really bad mistake here, you know? So he was ready to come home, so he went and talked to them on the 7th. Now, you have to understand, David kept his nose to the grindstone. When we talked to any of the employees there to check on him, they said he is a model student. If every student worked as hard and as diligent as him, this would be the perfect facility. KIM JOHNSON: So he was very serious about rehab. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, he was very, very serious about it, but he was also serious in knowing that he had to do this or there were repercussions. After he was in Sauna, he got really sick and his kidneys were hurting him and it took him six days of asking, "I need to see a doctor. I am sick. I don't feel good," you know, vomiting, diarrhea, "I need to see a doctor. I need to see a doctor." Six days later he finally said to the nurse, "I am not going anywhere. I need to see a doctor." So they finally took him to the doctor and they ran some blood work on him and stuff, and at that point his sugar levels were increased, which is a sign of niacin overdose. VINCE DANIELS: Niacin overdose. Talk to us about that a little bit. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, actually, most of the research that I did on niacin says that a severe-- VINCE DANIELS: What's the normal intake for an adult, for example? KIMBERLY DARR: Thirty-five milligrams a day and they had him up to 2,500 milligrams a day. VINCE DANIELS: Good Christ! KIMBERLY DARR: He had, you know, some of the normal signs was just flushing, peeling of the skin, but they also, you know, if you get an overdose you will also get diabetes-like symptoms or-- VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. KIMBERLY DARR: Hypoglycemia, gout, you know. There's a lot of long-term things that can happen if you have niacin overdose. VINCE DANIELS: Twenty-five hundred mill--okay, well, they must have a pretty good medical staff there that would know not to do that. KIM JOHNSON: You'd think. KIMBERLY DARR: That's when he first-- KIM JOHNSON: For $27,000. KIMBERLY DARR: You would think so because when we first went in there, the two main things that Jeff promised us was, one was going to be the one-on-one counseling. David needs to talk this out. There's not just the drug problem and he [inaudible] that. VINCE DANIELS: That's a medical problem. Do they have a medical--I mean, now many nurses and doctors do they have there? KIMBERLY DARR: They have one doctor but he's not really--he's on staff but he's not there. He--you have to go to his house. KIM JOHNSON: Really? KIMBERLY DARR: They take you there [inaudible]-- VINCE DANIELS: I thought house calls were a thing of the past, you know. [Laughter] KIMBERLY DARR: He's a Scientologist, he's on their payroll, and when he first got there they wouldn't even give him an aspirin. And so, they're like, "No, you have to see a doctor," so he's thinking, wow, they really care. And then two days later when he finally went to the doctor, the doctor walked in, sat down, looked at three papers and signed them and got up and left--never touched him, never took his blood pressure, never took his temperature, never looked at him. No physical contact at all and he was like, that's it? VINCE DANIELS: Yet prescribes 2,500 milligrams of niacin? KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: These people should be sued. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah, that's one of the reasons we were trying to come together, you know. So they had promised one-on-one counseling and they-- VINCE DANIELS: In my opinion, you're going to kill somebody doing that. KIMBERLY DARR: Oh, yeah. [Inaudible]-- KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. That reminds me of stories that I've heard of there were like boot camp sort of organizations. I remember one in Arizona and they had these extreme methods, and next thing you know, children are dropping dead of dehydration and it takes something extreme like that before people will listen and it's unfortunate. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, you talk about saunas. I mean, the word "sauna" sounds nice to everybody but you're talking 180 degrees for five hours a day. Five hours! VINCE DANIELS: Okay, now, bring us to the point where you would e-mail me a week ago and David was--he wanted to get the hell--he wanted to come home. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. After he got out of Sauna, finally, he was still sick, his kidneys were bothering him, his sugar levels were high. He was going to have to go back into course work which was a major issue for David. David has been diagnosed and has been taught in special schools for his dyslexia and they promised him that that wasn't going to be an issue. "Reading is not going to be an issue. You'll have all the help you want," which wasn't true. So he was like, this is it. They've lied to me enough. I need to leave. So he went and talked to them and told them he was leaving and they said, "Well, I think they're probably going to end up taking you to a hotel tonight." And he said, well, I'm taking a bus in the morning and, you know, you're not going to let me stay here tonight so that I can get a bus, get to the Greyhound station? Because if they would have taken him to the hotel he wouldn't have had any transportation to the Greyhound station. And they said, "Well, if you promise not to talk about your leaving to anybody." He said, "I promise you, I won't." So he got up the next morning. He called me at a quarter after eight. He said, "Okay, I ate breakfast, I'm getting ready. I've got all my stuff packed. I'm going up to the office because I don't want them to make me late." So he got there and their Ethics officer's office at 8:30 in the morning. I got a phone call at 10 from, I guess his name is Paddy O'Neill. He called me and he said, "You know, David wants to leave." And I said yes, I do. Then how do you-- VINCE DANIELS: This is somebody else. This is somebody over at Stone Hawk, right? KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. He said, "Well, how do you feel about that?" I said I support his decision. And he said, "Well, you know, okay." And I said, well, his bus leaves at 11:40. You need to--you've got a couple hours here, you know, just make sure he's on time. Okay. Hung up. I didn't hear anything from David, so around 1:00 I started calling there and I said, "I'm calling about David Bowser, my fiancé. I haven't heard from him. Can I talk to Paddy?" No, he's busy. So every half hour I was calling. "No, he's busy. No, he's busy." Fourth or fifth time I finally said, okay, if he's not available I'm going to talk to Per or Kate Wickstrom. I want to find out. "Oh, they're not available." I said, well, I'll hold until someone is available or you can let me talk to your attorney. And she said, "One moment, please," and put me on hold. And Paddy came on the line right away and said, "Well, David's right here." I said what? They didn't take him. He was sitting in the office still. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, holding him so he'd miss his bus. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. KIMBERLY DARR: And then after they made him miss his bus, because he's a model student; they want him to stay. "We were hoping you would change your mind." So he sat in that office for ten hours that day, 8:30 to 6:30, with nothing to do, sitting up straight, being respectful, not yelling, not arguing. And he finally said, "Listen, can I stay another night and get the bus in the morning?" And they said, "No, we're going to take you to a hotel." VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God. KIMBERLY DARR: So he called me at 7:00 and said, "They finally dropped me off at the hotel." KIM JOHNSON: Wow. KIMBERLY DARR: So I'm three and a half hours away, you know. I'm in another state and I've got to work the next morning but I've got to go pick him up or he has no way of getting home tomorrow. They wouldn't let him stay. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God. KIMBERLY DARR: They kicked him out because he wouldn't change his mind. VINCE DANIELS: Melissa Chavez is coming up next here with the news, and on the other side we're going to come back and we're going to hear from your fiancé, David, and also Melissa Casey who is a student of the program. Melissa just got out last night and David has been out now, say, for about a week. Melissa is also joined by her mother, Lynn Casey. We're going to hear from her as well and what you all want to do about all this. [Laughs] So stay right there, would you, for the next half hour or so? KIMBERLY DARR: Absolutely. VINCE DANIELS: Melissa Chavez coming up with the news next. It' a minute after the hour here on "The Many Moods." [End of Segment 1.]