The following describes the "Seeker" class, a Paladin variant that I played as in Keith's ill-fated campaign. My original message is first, then Keith's response, then my response to that. If I had it to do over... Keith was right about the 0th-level spells, of course. But he was wrong about giving me the extra healing ability. I still think my interpretation of the Barbarian level was valid. My character's level progression was exactly what I had thought it would be. Actually, since playing this class, I have discovered the "Initiate of the Order of the Bow" class in "Sword and Fist", which is way better than Arcane Archer. My new belief is, I should let the party wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on my arrows, rather than spend so much effort on them myself. And, Keith makes a comment that "do not assume that you are necessarily doomed..." That was a lie. We were so doomed from the start, it was not funny. Most of it was his doing. > ...So, I was thinking about this character creation thing. For a while I > was looking at creating a Paladin character with a strict moral code, et > cetera. Then I was looking at an Arcane Archer on a quest for a magic > item he's never going to find. My thought now is, hey, Paladins do > quests. Why not combine the two? > > See, the thing is, the Elven race doesn't naturally get very many > paladins, because elves are chaotic and paladins are lawful. It would be > possible to have a lawful elf, but he'd be kind of an outcast, which > wouldn't really be fun. But maybe the elves do have some sort of > equivalent of a paladin-type. > > See, the way this quest works is like this. There's some sort of artifact > - for some reason I keep thinking of those green Heart of the Jungle orbs > we found in the last campaign, but whatever - that was lost by (stolen > from) the elven kingdom a long, long time ago. Legend states that anyone > of elven blood that gets close to it can sense it. It would be really > good, for Carellon Lareithan or Ehlonna in particular, if the elves could > get this item back. So a popular thing for a young elf to do is to go on > this questing thing through the foreign kingdoms looking for this > artifact. Maybe it's something that the Elven Goddess calls them to do, > or maybe it's like a rite of passage for those who want to enter elven > high society. Maybe the families who were responsible for losing the > thing swore that some fraction of their children would all spend ten years > of their lives questing for it. Anyway, it's something fairly > traditional. > > So, if you've got somebody who's going to go on this quest, you'd want to > give him special training, right? You'd teach him Wilderness Lore and > Gather Information, Diplomacy and Ride. You'd want to give him all the > training you could in one level, because once he leaves the elven kingdoms > he's probably not going to be coming back for several years. > > In return, you'd ask him to swear to actually do a competent job of > looking for this thing. You'd ask him to cover as much ground as possible > in his travels and to Boldly Go Where No Elf Has Gone Before. You'd want > him to be Good-aligned, and you'd probably want him to be a faithful > worshipper of the Elven Goddess if he's going to be looking for an > artifact that's important to her. You'd also - and this is important - > ask him to swear to always keep moving, to never settle down in one place > or one routine until the questing time was up. Failure to do so would > mean losing a lot of the powers you had granted him. > > ...So I think the training I've described above is that of an Elven > Paladin class, which I shall describe as a "Seeker". In game terms, this > would be like the Paladin class, except: > > Required Race: Elf (or half-elf?) > Required Alignment: Chaotic Good > Code of Conduct: Must keep moving (barring short stops for training, etc.) > for some number of years after gaining Seeker level. Chaotic characters > don't have so much of a problem with evil, but Seekers do try to stay away > from anyone that might try to steal the Orb if they found it. > > Level Benefits: Characters seldom (if ever) gain more than one level of > Seeker. First-level benefits are the same as those of the Paladin. > (That's immunity to disease, Detect Evil, laying on of hands to heal CHA > mod worth of HP, and adding CHA mod to saving throws.) > > Multiclass: I think it makes sense that a Seeker level should not count > towards a multiclass penalty, since the class is designed with the intent > that nobody ever goes past Level 1 in it. At present I do not expect that > this will matter to my character, since I will be taking one level each of > Sorceror, Barbarian, and possibly Ranger as well. > > Skills: Paladins have a base of 2 skill points per level. This is pretty > crummy, especially as I expect INT will be my lowest-priority stat for > this character. Skills are as Paladin skills, but Gather Information and > Wilderness Lore are class skills, and Craft and Profession are not. > > Spellcasting: Like a Paladin, a Seeker has some knowledge of divine > spellcasting. (A first-level Paladin, for example, could use a Scroll of > Cure Light Wounds even though he doesn't have the ability to cast > first-level spells himself. (Actually, I think there's a mishap chance > for this... Can you check the DMG?) Seekers have the same ability.) > However, Seekers place a higher priority on being able to cast spells with > their initial training: A Seeker has the ability to prepare and cast a few > 0-level spells per day, as a Cleric would (except perhaps taking somewhat > less time to prepare.) 0-level Seeker spells include: > > Create Water > Cure Minor Wounds > Detect Magic > Detect Poison > Light > Mending > Purify Food and Drink > > I think a Seeker gets one 0-level spell per day, plus one bonus spell if > he has a Wisdom of 11. (0-level spells count as .5-level spells for some > purposes. To get a bonus spell you need a stat that's 10+2*(spell level.)) > > ---- > > I think that covers it. While I'm munchkinning, I should ask you at some > point if there's a way I can get around the multiclass restriction for > elves. It's like this: I imagine my character at high levels will look > like: > > Seeker 1 > Barbarian 1 (for 40-foot move; I probably won't use the rage much) > Sorceror 1 (for synergy with Seeker's CHA bonus) > Fighter 4 (for Weapon Specialization: Shortbow) > Arcane Archer X > > The trouble is, elves have Favored Class: Wizard. Half-elves have Favored > Class: Any, but I don't think a half-elf Seeker is as cool as a full-elf > one. So I can either drop the elf race, or I can drop the Weapon > Specialization (and pick up a level of Ranger and maybe another of > Barbarian). Either of the above is acceptable, but it occurs to me that > elves are fighters almost as often as they are wizards, so I'm going to > munchkin and ask if I can take Favored Class: Fighter for this character. > > -Dan > Hi Dan. Basically, this gets the big fat "Check" mark. There are some things to iron out and a few privilages to remove... So, what is the social difference between a Seeker and an elven Paladin of the same god. I know you implied that there was no such thing, but there is. Does one look down on the other? Is a Seeker viewed as a "Paladin who wouldn't live up to the same standards so quit training early"? [I was thinking not, but I ask.] Also, please do not assume that this bunch of artifact hunters is necessarily doomed. Not all Elves are chaotic. I don't see what would limit an elf to such a thing. Further, when I think elf, I think stasis and not chaos, because they live so long. But that doesn't stop one from being lawful or chaotic. The bit about going where no elf has before can be scrapped; an elf may miss a patch and then it'd never be searched again; or the artifact could be in someone's possession and therefore moving. Divine Health: I'll limit this to no natural disease. Can't have the Seekers laying around in an infirmary, but protection from magical diseases is just too much work for a Diety to do! Laying on Hands: This'll work as Cha mod * total level, as Seeker is what you are regardless of your skills. These 4 Paladinesque effects are not available when you are not Seeking. (This allows one to regain those 4 effects if they stop seeking and then continue later.) Multiclass: Seeker would definitely not count as a class for the purposes of multiclassing. Spells: I don't see any reason to give 0th level spells, sorry. Take a level of Cleric eventually if you'd like some spells. (Or Wizard, of course.) (Or Druid or bunches of Bard or Ranger.) Race-class thing: "Weapon Specialization ... add +2 damage... within 30 ft." Assume that the Arcane Archer isn't going to give any xp penalty, that leaves you with Fighter 4, Barbarian 1, and Sorceror 1 to contend with in the probable long-range. So then you'd have to ask yourself; "is the Barbarian level worth the extra 20% penalty." Or "is the +2 damage at close range worth the 40% penalty." Or "should I get Sorceror up to 2 because that'd be worth a base attack, and then do I take it up to 3 so I never get any experience penalty except for during that awkward period." And then you'd have to ask youself "can I predict the future so well as to know I wont want any other classes that Keith makes up/available." And then "how's my blood pressure?" Summary - Chill. Also, I don't know if I'll impose the multiclassing penalty unless someone tries to abuse it, ie takes Barbarian just for an extra 10ft of move, I mean comeon. -Keith. From dkb@andrew.cmu.edu Thu Aug 23 18:09:48 2001 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:29:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel K Blandford To: khumfeld@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: D&D > So, what is the social difference between a Seeker and an elven Paladin > of the same god. I know you implied that there was no such thing, but there > is. I did not realize that elven Paladins were common at all. (I hate to keep quoting the PHB at you since I can see that you're using a different interpretation, but it's really all I have to go on: "Elven paladins are few, and those few tend to follow quests that take them far and wide because their lawful bent puts them out of synch with life among the elves.") I believe that elven Paladins are seen as social misfits who can't stop butting into the affairs of the lesser mortals. They're not looked down upon, exactly, but the Seekers view them as most people view political activists of the extreme left or right. They might technically be correct, but they're getting way too worked up about it. (Note that I am still making the probably-flawed assumption that all Paladins are Lawful Good.) If you have a different interpretation, if there are chaotic elven Paladins who get along with other elves just fine, then I really don't see much difference between the two classes at all. Maybe it's like Paladins are full-time and Seekers are amateurs. A better example might be Seekers are like college kids who do community service once a month and Paladins are like full-time volunteer workers. It would be kind of a paternalistic relationship, I imagine. ============================= > Also, please do not assume that this bunch of artifact hunters is > necessarily doomed. I, the player, think that if my character survives until the end of the campaign there is a good chance he will complete his goal. My character, however, knows that there have been hundreds before him who went out into the foreign lands, saw the world, and finished their ten years without finding even a 100gp emerald, much less the Orb of Corellon Larethian itself. He's serious about trying his best on his mission, but all he really expects to get out of it is the fun of seeing the world. ============================= > Not all Elves are chaotic. I don't see what would limit an elf to such > a thing. Further, when I think elf, I think stasis and not chaos, because > they live so long. But that doesn't stop one from being lawful or chaotic. The rationale I have been using is that an elf's longer lifespan gives him perspective, and he doesn't get as worked up about things that don't concern him as a lawful character does. ============================ > The bit about going where no elf has before can be scrapped; an elf may > miss a patch and then it'd never be searched again; or the artifact could be > in someone's possession and therefore moving. Sure, sure. It's not like anyone keeps records anyway - Seekers just like to go where they don't think elves go often. ============================ > Divine Health: I'll limit this to no natural disease. Can't have the > Seekers laying around in an infirmary, but protection from magical diseases > is just too much work for a Diety to do! > Laying on Hands: This'll work as Cha mod * total level, as Seeker is > what you are regardless of your skills. ...Wow. Even with the spells removed, this is a far better class than the one I thought I was "munchkinning" with. Perhaps I overestimate the value of this ability. =========================== > These 4 Paladinesque effects are not available when you are not Seeking. > (This allows one to regain those 4 effects if they stop seeking and then > continue later.) This is fair, but what happens if I find the Orb (and therefore have no need to continue Seeking?) I guess my character doesn't know, as nobody has yet done it. =========================== > Race-class thing: "Weapon Specialization ... add +2 damage... within 30 > ft." Assume that the Arcane Archer isn't going to give any xp penalty, that > leaves you with Fighter 4, Barbarian 1, and Sorceror 1 to contend with in > the probable long-range. So then you'd have to ask yourself; "is the > Barbarian level worth the extra 20% penalty." Or "is the +2 damage at close > range worth the 40% penalty." Or "should I get Sorceror up to 2 because > that'd be worth a base attack, and then do I take it up to 3 so I never get > any experience penalty except for during that awkward period." And then > you'd have to ask youself "can I predict the future so well as to know I > wont want any other classes that Keith makes up/available." And then "how's > my blood pressure?" Summary - Chill. Also, I don't know if I'll impose the > multiclassing penalty unless someone tries to abuse it, ie takes Barbarian > just for an extra 10ft of move, I mean comeon. ...You're right that the weapon specialization may not be as nice as I thought. Of course no level of any class is worth a 20% experience penalty, no matter how good it seems. It is my belief, after looking through the PHB and consulting several other people, that prestige classes don't cause a multiclass penalty. Thus, if I became a half-elf and Fighter were my favored class, then I could take 1st- or 2nd- level of whatever classes I want without ever incurring a penalty. But being a half-elf Seeker would just be silly, so I think that instead I will limit myself to Fighter level 2 and be open-minded about taking any other classes that improve my base attack bonus. I have been reading "level of Barbarian" as "period of intense physical training which improves my speed and toughness but neglects the development of other skills." A Barbarian, of course, would be the most fitting person to find to grant me this training. I think it's pretty silly for an elven archer to use Barbarian Rage, and I won't blame you if you say I can't use that ability (could I trade it for +4HP or some extra skills or something?), but I think it makes good sense in-character to undergo such training. -Dan