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Date: Sun,  1 Jul 90 13:08:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Subject: Re: help please, I'am being repressed
In-Reply-To: <QaWCV0C00Vtp8=U3An@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <9006261649.AA04286@mdl.bull.fr>,
	<QaWCV0C00Vtp8=U3An@andrew.cmu.edu>

I'm not sure why you're asking about the .SubscriptionMap file; as Craig
said, it should be totally automatic.  If you suspect that it is
corrupted, however, you can type "rebuild" in the cui program to rebuild
it from scratch.  -- NB
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Date: 2 Jul 90 20:24:32 GMT
From: snorkelwacker!bu.edu!dartvax!northstar89.dartmouth.edu!paw@uunet.uu.net  (Pat Wilson)
Organization: Project NORTHSTAR, Dartmouth College
Subject: Convert to AMS?
Message-Id: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

I'm contemplating converting our mail system to AMS in the hopes
that that would stop our constant mail (mainly flock) problems.
We've got about 100 workstations on 3 AFS servers.  I'd like to
hear pros and cons of AMS - I've heard it's *big*, and a pain to
administer, but I'm willing to put up with some amount of hassle
if it'll solve our mail problems in a _robust_ way.

If you've faced a similar decision, I'd be interested in knowing
what you did about it and why.

Thanks.

Pat Wilson
Operations Manager, Project NORTHSTAR
paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
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Date: 2 Jul 90 11:14:03 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!mucs!liv-cs!mdb@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Computer Science CSMVAX, Liverpool University
Subject: Andrew on HP workstations
Message-Id: <1990Jul2.121404.10693@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

Some time ago, I remember seeing a message that the patches to
allow Andrew to be complied under Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix,
hpux 7.0, would be made available with Patch 6 in the current series.
Is this true?  If so, have you any idea when patch 6 will be released please?

Thanks,

Martin Beer,
Dept. of Computer Science,
University of Liverpool.

mdb@uk.ac.liv.cs.mva
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Message-ID: <0aY8isC00Vsn0=qG8C@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue,  3 Jul 1990 08:12:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Steven Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons
In-Reply-To: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>

...from the home office in PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA:

		   Top 10 Reasons to Convert to AMS

10.  Multimedia
9.  Enthusiastic support from ITC and other AMS users
8.  Bitmapped, glass tty, dumb tty, and emacs interfaces
7.  That "Le Car" is just the jauntiest thing around...  Oh, sorry,
	that's a reason to convert to *AMC*
6.  Mail filtering with FLAMES
5.  Active message features:  Votes, return-receipts, subscription
	invitations, auto-redistribution, etc.
4.  Most up-to-date popular mail system
3.  Bugs:  You find 'em, we fix 'em
2.  Seamless interface with ATK

	   ...and the number one reason to convert to AMS:

1.  Annoy your colleagues all over the world with those nasty
	"An Andrew ToolKit view (a raster image) was included here, but
	 could not be displayed" messages!

[An Andrew ToolKit view (a ThrillCam ride) was included here, but could
not be displayed.]

______________                  _____________________________
Bob Glickstein                | Internet: bobg@andrew.cmu.edu
Information Technology Center | Bitnet:   bobg%andrew@cmuccvma.bitnet
Carnegie Mellon University    | UUCP:     ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!bobg
Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890    |
(412) 268-6743                | Sinners can repent, but stupid is forever
\enddata{text822, 5103}
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X-Andrew-Authenticated-As: 469;andrew.cmu.edu;Craig F. Everhart
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Message-ID: <EaY_gVH0BwwO0i2Vh_@transarc.com>
Date: Tue,  3 Jul 90 10:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu (Pat Wilson)
Subject: Re: Convert to AMS?
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\begindata{text,18870384}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
It's total craziness to run ordinary mailers on top of AFS.  That's why 
there's an AMS at all.


AMS is not that big.  It is a mail system, however, so it will require some 
administration; because it's unfamiliar, those administrative tasks may seem 
to be ``a pain.''


The only two AMS installations using AFS are the ones at andrew.cmu.edu and at 
transarc.com.  The andrew.cmu.edu installation supports about 10^5 users, and 
anything at that magnitude will require occasional intervention.  The 
transarc.com installation supports far fewer, and the local sysadmin with the 
responsibility of running it tells us that ``it runs itself.''


Let's review the AMS pieces, if for no other reason than than as a basis for 
discussion.  I'll do this in a layered fashion.


----------------

Bare AMS, no ATK, no AFS, no WP, no SNAP, no AMDS.  You get CUI and VUI and 
maybe BatMail; these are multiple interfaces (line-oriented, screen-oriented, 
Emacs-subprocess-oriented) into the same database of messages.  You get Flames 
processing of incoming mail into idiosyncratic personal folders.  You get the 
ability to define a suite of public bboards--actually, folders that are as 
public or as private as the file system (and your set of groups) can make 
them.  Essentially, you get the ability to make a public name space of 
bboards.  But, to be fair, there's probably no reason to prefer this setup 
over MH, or Mush, or maybe even /usr/ucb/Mail.


Add WP (White Pages): you can get fuzzy matching of your local names.


Add SNAP: you can support tiny PCs and Macintoshes, so that they run full 
clients of the entire message system.


Add ATK: you get multi-media mail.  This is perhaps the biggest step of all. 
 While CUI and VUI are not tiny programs, Messages (the ATK interface), as a 
full ATK client, is large.  Older, pre-X.V11R4patchlevel4 (or so) Messages 
versions grow even larger.


(Add AFS: you get big-site distribution of your publicly-named bboard tree. 
 You get location transparency.)


Add AMDS (``AMS delivery'', Andrew Message Delivery System): requires WP and 
exploits AFS.  You get reliable local message delivery in spite of 
distributed-system transient outages.  You get WP (and fuzzy name matching) 
integrated with your local mail delivery mechanism, so external users get the 
same fuzzy name matching (with ambiguous or overly-fuzzy matches bounced).


Add netnews support: you keep a copy of netnews in AFS (centrally, so 
everybody can fetch it).  It looks like a public suite of AMS folders.

----------------


Now, lots of folks out there run with basic-AMS plus ATK (i.e. Messages), so 
they get multi-media mail, but still use something like sendmail for all 
delivery.


The Transarc installation is sort of the converse: ATK isn't widely used, so 
we use AMS (CUI+VUI), AMDS, WP.  For many people, VUI is not a graceful 
interface; there are other interfaces under development at CMU, though.  You 
can use Messages with the Transarc installation, but ATK isn't built locally 
for all platforms.


AFS, like any distributed system, introduces transient failures.  A mail 
system needs to behave autonomously, though, and it can't be bothered to parse 
error messages appearing on /dev/console.  AMDS, and the part of AMS that 
actually deals with the representation of folders, are rather highly tuned to 
deal with these transient outages in a graceful way, since they all developed 
together.


Case history: Transarc's installation.  Initially, incoming mail was stored in 
a publicly-writable version of /usr/spool/mail/userid, in AFS; 
``/usr/spool/mail'' on all machines was a symlink to an AFS directory.  Mail 
was available, more or less, but the automatic attempts to deliver the mail 
could (and did) fail silently.  Second generation was to put all the incoming 
mail on one central machine's local disk, much as lots of shops that run 
sendmail+NFS do.  Since we weren't fundamentally hooked up with NFS, that 
means that everybody would telnet to the central machine to process their 
incoming mail.  Not bad, but it doesn't scale to a large organization, and 
with even a small one, the little central machine started to grind ever more 
slowly.  Third generation was to install AMDS, so that incoming mail is stored 
in users' ~userid/Mailbox directories, in AFS, and you manipulate that mail 
with AMS clients.  The only mail-related processes now running on the central 
machine are AMDS ones: there are three central queues (two immedate 
(``fast''), one background (``slow'')), a queuemail daemon for each, a 
sendmail installation on only one machine for long-haul non-AFS mail, and a 
CUI daemon providing processing for an entire local bboard suite.


I, and many other recipients of this list, will be happy to try to answer any 
further questions.


		Craig

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From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Convert to AMS?
In-Reply-To: <EaY_gVH0BwwO0i2Vh_@transarc.com>
References: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>,
	<EaY_gVH0BwwO0i2Vh_@transarc.com>

\begindata{text,2639184}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 3-Jul-90 Re: Convert to 
AMS? Craig_Everhart@transarc. (4762+0)}


\quotation{The only two AMS installations using AFS are the ones at 
andrew.cmu.edu and at transarc.com.  

}
Um, actually there's an IBM site (Rochester, Minnesota) that uses the whole 
shebang and has at least twice as many bulletin boards as CMU -- over 4000 
bboards, last I heard!  I believe they decided they needed the AMS delivery 
system (AMDS) not too long after they starting using AFS in a big way.


My gut feeling is that wherever AFS goes, AMDS will eventually have to follow. 
 -- NB

\enddata{text,2639184}

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Date: Tue,  3 Jul 1990 13:44:43 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Susan Straub <susan+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons
References: <9007031739.AA15042@oscar.tn.cornell.edu>

\begindata{text,270570868}
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\template{messages}


Can you help this guy?


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------


\smaller{Return-path: <grossman@oscar.tn.cornell.edu>

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From: grossman@oscar.tn.cornell.edu

Message-Id: <9007031739.AA15042@oscar.tn.cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons

To: bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert Steven Glickstein)

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 13:39:25 EDT

In-Reply-To: <0aY8isC00Vsn0=qG8C@andrew.cmu.edu>; from "Robert Steven 
Glickstein" at Jul 3, 90 8:12 am

}
> 		   Top 10 Reasons to Convert to AMS


I agree, but don't have time to port to IBM RS/6000.  Any ideas how

long it will be till patch 6 is out?  Any way to get early ATK, AMS,

etc already running on RS/6000?


Thanks.


-- 

David Grossman         grossman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu


\typewriter{\smaller{\smaller{
______________                  _____________________________

Bob Glickstein                | Internet: bobg@andrew.cmu.edu

Information Technology Center | Bitnet:   bobg%andrew@cmuccvma.bitnet

Carnegie Mellon University    | UUCP:     ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!bobg

Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890    |

(412) 268-6743                | Sinners can repent, but stupid is forever

}}}\enddata{text,270570868}

\enddata{text822, 15889}
\begindata{text822, 18662}
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X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 6544;andrew.cmu.edu;Jay Laefer
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Message-ID: <YaYBh6y00WABE42UUL@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue,  3 Jul 90 13:52:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Laefer <jl57+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Convert to AMS?
Cc: 
In-Reply-To: <EaY_gVH0BwwO0i2Vh_@transarc.com>
References: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>,
	<EaY_gVH0BwwO0i2Vh_@transarc.com>


Ummm, Craig, I think you meant 10^4 users, not 10^5.  I can think of a lot of
people who'd be just a little surprised to find 100,000 users at this cell.

We've currently got a little over 9000 users at then andrew.cmu.edu cell.
I have to admit to being pretty happy with the way our local mail is handled.
My only complaint is with "messages" which bogs down and IBM RT and a Sun 3/50.
(I have a Sun 3/50 on my desk.)  Fortunately, CMU is in the process of
installing DECstation 3100's all over campus, and "messages" runs wonderfully
on those.

	-Jay
\enddata{text822, 18662}
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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 11:26:04 -0700
From: Martin Fong <fong@itstd.sri.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: fong@itstd.sri.com
Subject: Andrew Font Editor?

     I would like to create new, and extend existing, Andrew fonts.
Does Andrew have a font editor to support this, and if so, how may I
obtain it?  (From my perusal of the X11R4 distribution, it's not
apparent where such an editor resides, although I have encountered wm
font utilities in overhead/fonts/cmd/.)

     Thanks,

     Martin Fong			fong@itstd.sri.com
     Senior Software Engineer		(415) 859-4574
     SRI International, EJ370
     333 Ravenswood Avenue
     Menlo Park, CA    94025
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Date: Tue,  3 Jul 1990 15:56:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam Stoller <ghoti+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,2385916}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Unfortunately the only program that we ever had for designing fonts was never 
ported to work under [and for] X11.


I don't remember seeing any real font editor in the X stuff either.  xfed 
doesn't really allow you to edit the font (as a bitmap) the way most of our 
fonts were created.


Perhaps someone will eventually port or write a decent font editor for X11 - 
but as of yet I haven't seen one.


--fish

\enddata{text,2385916}

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From: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Message-Id: <9007041410.AA19641@mdl.bull.fr>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Subject: private Bboards


   I'd like to use the ATK private bboard as private meeting tool in a 
multi-machine environment. If anyone has experienced this before, I'd 
be interested in having some opinion about the following points:

  -The bboards.ins file that describes how to install the AMS BBoards
   system says that in order to run the Bboard , "Every BB machine must be
   a workstation type that supports AFS". 

   What about UNIX machines which are not workstations (I mean machines
   which you can connect X terminals or dumb terminals )? Is it possible to
   run AMS with private Bboards in a secure way on that machines with (or 
   without ) AFS . If AFS is mandatory, could some kind soul give me some 
   information about it (available on what kind of machines, copyright for
   the US and in the rest of the world, ease of porting, etc.)

  -what do you think about the reliability of the security and 
   authentification mechanism (compare to the MIT Kerberos system for 
   instance).

   thanks for your help.



  -- Jean-Luc Oun, Bull			----------------------------------
  Software Development Methodology	email: oun@cl.bull.fr
  Les-Clayes(Paris), France		tel: (33) (1) 34 62 70 00 ext. 6374
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Message-Id: <YaYUWpG0M2Yt855Gt7@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Wed,  4 Jul 90 11:18:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: How to Create an AMS Bboard System
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
In-Reply-To: <9007041410.AA19641@mdl.bull.fr>
References: <9007041410.AA19641@mdl.bull.fr>

First of all, the instructions are out of date.  I'm running a bboard
system happily without AFS, as are several other sites that I know of. 
So don't worry about AFS in this case.

As for security, AMS bboards are as secure as the file system they use. 
They're much more secure if  you use AFS, because AFS authentication and
protection are so good.

Basically, to set up a bboard system you need to do a few things, which
I'll outline here in not-too much detail; I encourage you to ask more
specific questions as needed.  I'll describe how you create ONE bboard,
and then talk about how you can generalize the process.  My take on it
is that if you don't know anything about AMS bboards it should still
only take you an hour or two to set up one bboard as described below. 
Beyond that, you can probably put in an arbitrary amount of time making
your bboard system more complex and fancy.  Anyway, the instructions
follow.  (CMU PEOPLE:  MAYBE YOU MIGHT WANT TO POLISH THIS UP FOR A HELP
FILE?)

1.  Set up a bboard account, which I'll assume below is called "bboard".

2.  Logged in as "bboard", run the cui program and type "create bb" to
create a bboard called "bb".

3.  Ensure that any mail that comes to "bboard" gets posted on this
bboard by creating the file ~bboard/.AMS.flames, with contents much like
the following single line:

(defun bb-hook (msg) (appendmsgtodir msg (findfolder "bb" "w")))

4.  Create the file ~bboard/.MESSAGES/bb/.MS.DirectPost and put the
following two lines, more or less, in it:

0
"bb" <bboard@local-host>

Note that due to a BUG in AMS, you should use some name OTHER THAN your
"ThisDomain" configuration to refer to  your local host.  (For example,
my ThisDomain is "thumper.bellcore.com", and my DirectPost files say
"blah" <foo@thumper> instead of "blah" <foo@thumper.bellcore.com>.)  The
reason you have to go through this is that if "local-host" is identical
to ThisDomain, currently the "bb" portion of this address is sometimes
dropped by the address rewriter.  THIS SHOULD BE FIXED and, indeed,
might already have been fixed for the next patch release -- I just don't
know.

5.  Set up one or more daemons to process the bboards.  This can be done
in several different ways.  Using SunOS 4.0.X, I do it using the
extended crontab facility.  Typing "crontab -l" as the bboard account, I
see that I currently have 4 daemons set up:

0 * * * * /u/andrew/bin/processmsgs
5 1 * * * /u/andrew/bin/collectlogs
5 0 * * * /u/andrew/bin/dailypurge
15 0 * * 0 /u/andrew/bin/weeklypurge

The first one posts the notices.  The second runs nightly to collect the
logs from the other daemons.  The last two purge different bboards at
daily and weekly intervals.  Note that these daemons all run as "bboard"
(or, in my case, as "andrew").    The shell scripts used will be
appended below.

That's it!  I think that's all you really have to do.  Once you're set
up like this, you can use any AMS interface to send mail to "bb" and it
will get routed to the bboard.  To generalize beyond this to a rich set
of zillions of bboards, you need to learn a little more about
.MS.DirectPost files, and potentially a lot more about .AMS.flames
files.  (FLAMES is a LISP-like language that you can use to route
incoming messages to the correct bboards.)  I believe that both are
documented in the help system, but feel free to ask if you have any more
questions.  Good luck.  -- Nathaniel

________________________________
The four crontab scripts referred to above follow below.  You'll
probably need to change some path names, bb names, etc. -- think of
these as just suggestions regarding how to set up such daemons, because
I make no guarantees that they'll work for anyone else.    Bear in mind,
they're intended to be running for the "andrew" account here at
Bellcore.  Also, the "arch" program is a local hack that returns the cpu
type of the machine, e.g. sun3, sun4, etc.  -- it is used below to find
the right path names for some binaries.
________________________________
processmsgs
________________________________
#!/bin/csh -f

echo $$ > /tmp/cronlock.processmsgs
sleep 5
if ($$ !=  `cat /tmp/cronlock.processmsgs`) exit
set CUIPS = `ps ux | grep cui  | grep andrew | grep -v grep`
set LOGFILE = ~/bb.log
if ("" == "$CUIPS") then
    echo "Starting CUI now" >>&	 $LOGFILE
   /u/andrew/`arch`/bin/cui set script on \; set log $LOGFILE \; set
term 0 \; set level wizard \; loop -1 300 check >& /dev/null
else
#     echo "CUI is already running for me" >>&  $LOGFILE
endif

________________________________
collectlogs
________________________________
#!/bin/csh -f
echo $$ > /tmp/cronlock.collectlogs
sleep 5
if ($$ !=  `cat /tmp/cronlock.collectlogs`) exit
set LOGFILE=~/bb.log
set PURGEFILE=~/bbpurge.log
set DOUBLINESFILE=~/bin/doublines.sed
touch $PURGEFILE
set TMPFILE=/tmp/bb.log.$$

echo "From:  Bboard Daemon" >& $TMPFILE
echo "Subject:  Yesterday's bboard activity" >> $TMPFILE
echo -n "Date: " >> $TMPFILE
/u/andrew/sun4/etc/arpadate >> $TMPFILE
echo "Content-Type: X-BE2; 12" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE

echo "\begindata{text, 42}" >> $TMPFILE
echo "\majorheading{Critical error summary from yesterday's bboards}" >>
$TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
grep critical $LOGFILE | sed -f $DOUBLINESFILE >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "\majorheading{Purging Report}" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
cat $PURGEFILE  | sed -f $DOUBLINESFILE >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "\majorheading{Statistics on numbers of messages processed}" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "These statistics are not yet being computed.  Here, however, is
some of the raw data:" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
echo "" >> $TMPFILE
grep "read in" $LOGFILE  | sed -f $DOUBLINESFILE  >> $TMPFILE
echo "\enddata{text, 42}" >> $TMPFILE

mv $TMPFILE ~/Mailbox
if ($status == 0) then
  rm $LOGFILE
  rm $PURGEFILE
  rm $WEATHERLOGFILE
endif
________________________________
dailypurge
________________________________
#!/bin/csh -f
echo $$ > /tmp/cronlock.dailypurge
sleep 5
if ($$ !=  `cat /tmp/cronlock.dailypurge`) exit

/u/andrew/`arch`/bin/cui set script on \; set term 0 \; set level wizard
\;  epoch /u/andrew/.MESSAGES/bb/apnews one days ago \;  epoch
/u/andrew/.MESSAGES/bb/weather one days ago \;  quit >>& ~/bbpurge.log 
________________________________
weeklypurge
________________________________
#!/bin/csh -f
echo $$ > /tmp/cronlock.weeklypurge
sleep 5
if ($$ !=  `cat /tmp/cronlock.weeklypurge`) exit

/u/andrew/`arch`/bin/cui  set script on \; set term 0 \; set level
wizard \; epoch /u/andrew/.MESSAGES/bb ten days ago \; epoch
/u/andrew/.MESSAGES/internet ten days ago \;epoch
/u/andrew/.MESSAGES/lost ten days ago  \;  quit >>& ~/bbpurge.log 
\enddata{text822, 26125}
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From: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Message-Id: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Subject: Re: How to Create an AMS Bboard System


in the message "How to Create an AMS Bboard System" in the newsgroups 
comp.soft-sys.andrew, nsb@thumper.bellcore.com (Nathaniel Borenstein)
says:


>First of all, the instructions are out of date.  I'm running a bboard
>system happily without AFS, as are several other sites that I know of. 
>So don't worry about AFS in this case.
> 
> .......

  Thanks for your help.  I'd like to have some more detail: 

  Running bboard system in a multi-machine environment WITHOUT AFS, can
you control the access right of people from other machines who want to 
subscribe to your bboard?


		-- Jean-Luc


  -- Jean-Luc Oun, Bull			----------------------------------
  Software Development Methodology	email: oun@cl.bull.fr
  Les-Clayes(Paris), France		tel: (33-1) 34 62 70 00 ext. 6374
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Date: Thu,  5 Jul 90 11:15:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: How to Create an AMS Bboard System
CC: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
In-Reply-To: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>
References: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>

\begindata{text,18893824}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
(aside first: yes, andrew.cmu.edu has ~10^4 users, not ~10^5.  Apologies.)


AFS uses Kerberos authentication.  (AFS is now a registered trademark of 
Transarc Corp., US 412-338-4467)


As Nathaniel says, you can build an AMS bboard system out of any Unix-like 
file system.  Bboards are simply directories and files in the file system, and 
can thus be made as public or as private as the underlying file system 
permits.  There are many possible classes of permissions: the popular 
``public'' one requires that everybody have read access to the directory (and 
its files), but only that the posting daemon, presumably running as a 
dedicated account, have write/update access to those directories and files. 
 For a bboard that's private to a group, if you can give read access to only 
the members of that group (and to the posting daemon), you've got it made, to 
the extent that you trust your file system's access control.


In short, AMS doesn't provide for any security above that provided by the 
underlying storage system.


To Nathaniel's point about the ``AMS BUG'': I submitted a patch that should 
fix it on 16 April (1990); I don't know when the next patch will emerge. 
 We've been running with the locally-patched software, but we don't have 
Nathaniel's problem since we're using AMDS.  (The problem was a problem only 
for non-AMDS sites.)  In any event, the fix simply doesn't discard the 
route-phrase if there was one.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18893824}

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Date: Thu,  5 Jul 90 10:37:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: PS -- Re: How to Create an AMS Bboard System
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
In-Reply-To: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>
References: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>

Oh, yeah, you asked about other machines.  If you're running NFS, you
have the usual ability to permit or deny mounting the bboard file
system, which may or may not be enough to satisfy you...
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Date: Thu,  5 Jul 90 10:36:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: How to Create an AMS Bboard System
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
In-Reply-To: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>
References: <9007051302.AA23967@mdl.bull.fr>

Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 5-Jul-90 Re: How to Create an AMS
Bb.. oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr (780)

> Running bboard system in a multi-machine environment WITHOUT AFS, can
> you control the access right of people from other machines who want to
> subscribe to your bboard?

Only to the extent that  you can use the underlying file system
protection to do so.  That is, you can use UNIX groups, or whatever, but
as we all know that's not a very fine-grained mechanism, which is why
they added such better protection to AFS.

In particular, it would be pretty easy to set up two kinds of bboards,
regular and special.  Anyone could read the regular bboards, but you'd
have to be a member of the "special" group as defined in /etc/group to
read the special bboards.  (Note that the bboard processing daemon would
be the owner of the bboard, and would have write permission, and
therefore all you'd give to the group would be read permission.)  

At any rate, I think something like that would work, but I haven't tried
it.  Our bboards at Bellcore are all pretty much open to anyone who has
an account on our machines right now...
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Date: 4 Jul 90 23:24:05 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons
Message-Id: <103667@convex.convex.com>
References: <23004@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>, <0aY8isC00Vsn0=qG8C@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>10.  Multimedia

Here's a term that many use but none define.  What's it supposed to mean?

>9.  Enthusiastic support from ITC and other AMS users

Hmm. I've heard that the ITC is dwindling, and that no real further
development is likely.

>6.  Mail filtering with FLAMES

Which is still, it seems, poorly documented.  The examples in the online
help work great alone, but I've tried in vain to get my flames file to do
more than one thing.



--
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Date: Thu,  5 Jul 1990 13:07:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Steven Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,270770672}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 4-Jul-90 Re: Converting 
to AMS: Top .. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (448)}


\quotation{>10.  Multimedia

}
\quotation{Here's a term that many use but none define.  What's it supposed to 
mean?

}
For the purposes of ATK, it means an arbitrary mix of ordinary or styled text 
and/or any of various "insets."  Insets are data-object/view pairs for 
displaying and editing different kinds of data, such as bitmap images, 
structured drawings, animations, spreadsheets, and so on.


\quotation{>9.  Enthusiastic support from ITC and other AMS users

}
\quotation{Hmm. I've heard that the ITC is dwindling, and that no real further

}\quotation{development is likely.

}
While it's true that the focus of the ITC is currently shifting and that 
development of new features for Andrew by the ITC are mostly halted, it's also 
true that the ITC has an ongoing Andrew support team which, among other 
things, incorporates new features developed by external users into Andrew, and 
provides assistance to Andrew users all over the world.


\quotation{>6.  Mail filtering with FLAMES

}
\quotation{Which is still, it seems, poorly documented.  The examples in the 
online

}\quotation{help work great alone, but I've tried in vain to get my flames 
file to do

}\quotation{more than one thing.

}
That's the purpose of this mailing list.  Share your problems with everyone, 
and you'll soon have a solution to your problem.

\typewriter{\smaller{\smaller{
______________                  _____________________________

Bob Glickstein                | Internet: bobg@andrew.cmu.edu

Information Technology Center | Bitnet:   bobg%andrew@cmuccvma.bitnet

Carnegie Mellon University    | UUCP:     ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!bobg

Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890    |

(412) 268-6743                | Sinners can repent, but stupid is forever

}}}\enddata{text,270770672}

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Date: Thu,  5 Jul 90 12:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
To: Martin Fong <fong@itstd.sri.com>
Subject: Re: Andrew Font Editor?
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
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It is possible to use the X program `bitmap' to create a character, then
mung it to hex via a simple program (I adapted one of the pbm filters',
then hand-edit a BDF file.  What a kludge!

Bill
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Date: Thu, 5 Jul 90 22:04:17 GMT+0100
From: Bjorn Asle Valde <edmbv@fiol.uib.no>
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: What's ITC switching too?  (was: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons)


Begin forwarded message:

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          Thu,  5 Jul 90 13:09:53 -0400 (EDT)
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          via MS.5.6.ephrata.andrew.cmu.edu.rt_r3;
          Thu,  5 Jul 1990 13:07:37 -0400 (EDT)

[deleted]

Bob Glickstein (bobg@andrew.cmu.edu) writes:

>While it's true that the focus of the ITC is currently shifting and that
>development of new features for Andrew by the ITC are mostly halted,
>it's also true that the ITC has an ongoing Andrew support team which,
>among other things, incorporates new features developed by external
>users into Andrew, and provides assistance to Andrew users all over the
>world.

End forwarded message.

	ITC and Andrew looks like a close relation. It would be interesting
	to know what ITC are up to now. 

 

Regards; Bjorn Asle
--
Bjorn Asle Valde	bav@fiol.uib.no	(X400 valde@cc.uib.no)
Computing Centre, University of Bergen, Norway.
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From: sbc@informatics.WUstl.EDU (Steve Cousins)
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Shared objects


Is there any mechanism in Andrew for sharing objects?  If not, has anyone
worked on incorporating a database system with Andrew that would enable
controlled object access?

Thanks for any info.

Steve Cousins
Medical Informatics Lab
Washington University
St. Louis, MO
sbc@informatics.wustl.edu
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 5-Jul-90 Shared objects 
Steve Cousins@informatic (296)}


\quotation{Is there any mechanism in Andrew for sharing objects?  If not, has 
anyone

}\quotation{worked on incorporating a database system with Andrew that would 
enable

}\quotation{controlled object access?

}
No there isn't any mechanism for shared objects, or any work on storing the 
objects in a database -- as far as I know. We have looked at some of the 
issues involved, and I'm planning to prototype some shared object mechanisms 
in order to better understand those issues. I'd be interested in learning more 
about your intended application(s) and requirements.


--david

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Information Technology Center

Carnegie Mellon University

+1 412-268-5791 // 412-268-6787 (fax)\
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Date: Fri,  6 Jul 90 11:16:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Wayne Richardson  <wdr@rchland.ibm.com>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: <wdr@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Andrew Font Editor?
In-Reply-To: <IaYDW7O00as90FEkVs@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <9007031826.AA01009@sitcom.itstd.sri.com>,
	<IaYDW7O00as90FEkVs@andrew.cmu.edu>

Excerpts from ext.cmu.info-andrew: 3-Jul-90 Re: Andrew Font Editor? Adam
Stoller@RCHGATE.rch (405+0)

> ...xfed doesn't really allow you to edit the font (as a bitmap) the way
> most of our fonts were created.

I think xfed is actually a pretty nice font editor.  The one I use (from
Claus Gittinger ..!decvax!unido!sinix!claus) does let you edit the font
as a bitmap, so you can tweak the chars as much as you want.

Note that xfed is a bdf editor, so in order to edit the Andrew fonts you
have to first make the bdf's from the fdb's.  The Andrew make process
makes them, but erases them when it's done.  It goes something like this:

sed -e 's/^$spacing \(.*\),.*$/$spacing \1,0/' cou8f.fdb >
/tmp/cou8f.tfdb
/andrew/bin/fdbbdf /tmp/cou8f.tfdb >/tmp/cou8f.bdf
/usr/bin/X11/bdftosnf /tmp/cou8f.bdf >cou8f.snf
rm -f /tmp/cou8f.bdf /tmp/cou8f.tfdb


-wr
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From: emuleomo@paul.rutgers.edu (Emuleomo)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.misc
Subject: Andrew Toolkit
Keywords: Andrew Toolkit
Message-ID: <Jun.30.09.12.00.1990.27224@paul.rutgers.edu>
Date: 30 Jun 90 13:12:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
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Hi Xworld,

I heard that the Andrew Toolkit supports non-rectangular widgets.
ie. triangular widets shapes, circles, rounded rectangles etc...
Can anybody confirm this?
Also what can I get from Andrew that I can get from HP, Athena,  Motif 
or Openlook?

E-mail will be mucho appreciated!

ThanX
--Emuleomo O.O. (emuleomo@yes.rutgers.edu)
-- 
Remember! It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you win!
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To: emuleomo@paul.rutgers.edu (Emuleomo)
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Excerpts from mail: 30-Jun-90 Andrew Toolkit Emuleomo@paul.rutgers.ed (411)


> I heard that the Andrew Toolkit supports non-rectangular widgets.
> ie. triangular widets shapes, circles, rounded rectangles etc...
> Can anybody confirm this?

Andrew does lot's of stuff, but this isn't one of them. Following is a
short blurb on the toolkit. 

ATK, the Andrew ToolKit, is an extensible user support environment which
provides an editor, a shell interface, a system status monitor,
electronic mail, and numerous applications.  The environment is not
monolithic: users can choose among the ATK tools those which best
complement there tasks and can continue to utilize other tools as they
desire. Since ATK is extensible, sites can easily add other applications
to the environment, without the effort of development from scratch.

As a user-interface toolkit that runs under X11, ATK provides a
dynamically-loadable object-oriented environment wherein objects can be
embedded in one-another. In addition to containing multiple fonts, text
can contains embedded raster images, spreadsheets, drawing editors,
equations, simple animations, etc.. These embedded objects could
themselves contain other objects, including text. These resulting
multi-media documents can be edited, printed, or sent in mail messages
via the Andrew Mail System(AMS). With the toolkit, programmers can
create new objects that can be embedded as easily as those that come
with the system. 

The X11-R4 release also includes an interface building system that
facilitates the creation of multiple-object applications (Adew), an
object-extension language (Ness), a hypertext-like link facility(Link),
a charting facility(Chart), a directory browser (Bush)  and enhanced
printing support that includes the automatic generation of tables of
contents and indexes. The ATK source is distributed on the X11 tape in
contrib/toolkits/andrew. 

This release has been built on IBM RT's, Sun-3s, Sun-4s, Vaxes, PMaxes
and HP's AUX.

This release can be obtained in several ways.  The entire X distribution
is available via anonymous ftp from the Internet host, expo.lcs.mit.edu
(Internet: 18.30.0.212).  The sources for ATK, AMS and ODA are located
in the "andrew" tree,  one of the contributed tool kits. Just the
"andrew" tree from the X distribution,  as well as the latest patches, 
is available via anonymous ftp from the Internet host,
emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu (Internet:128.2.30.62). Papers on the Andrew
Toolkit, the Andrew File system, the Andrew Message system, the
ODA-Express project, the Ness programming language, and the ADEW
interface builder are included in the project directory . See the
psdoc/project/READ_ME file for more details. In addition, I have just
translated the files in the andrew 'doc' tree into postscript form,
compressed them, and placed the result in a tree starting at psdoc/doc. 

Copies of the entire X distribution software can also be obtained, for
the nominal X11 distribution charge, by contacting:

    MIT Software Distribution Center
    Technology Licensing Office
    Room E32-300
    77 Massachusetts Avenue
    Cambridge, MA  02139
    USA
    +1-617-258-8330

We also distribute the following related materials:

    The Andrew Project, Selected Technical Papers (available now, no charge).
    Hardcopies of the documentation for ATK and AMS (available end of
    January, about 3700 pages).
    Nathaniel S. Borenstein's book: Multimedia Applications Development
    with the Andrew Toolkit (Prentice-Hall, available now).
    ODA Project Book: Multi-media Document Interchange: ODA and the
    EXPRES Project (Springer Verlag, available in late Winter 90).
    Introductory video tape: Welcome to Andrew: An Overview of the
    Andrew System (available now).
    Technical video tape: The Andrew Project: A Session at the Winter
    1988 Usenix Conference (available now).

More information about these materials is available from:

    Information Requests
    Information Technology Center
    Carnegie Mellon University
    4910 Forbes Avenue
    Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890
    USA
    phone: +1-412-268-6700
    fax: +1-412-268-6787
    info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu


We are providing updates to the Andrew software as necessary. These will
be distributed as patches (for use with the patch program distributed as
part of the X tape). We will put these patches on both expo (in
/contrib/andrew/patches) and emsworth (in /patches). In addition,
emsworth will contain three complete distributions: a compressed tar
file of the sources on the X.V11R4 tape, a compressed tar file of the
sources with all patches applied, and a complete source tree with all
patches applied. Therefore, one can retrieve the desired patch files,
the latest version of the software, or the latest version of any
specific file. These files can be retrieved by anonymous FTP or by mail.
 For more information on mail retrieval of information, send a (blank)
piece of mail to
andrew-service@andrew.cmu.edu

The info-andrew unmoderated distribution list contains informal
conversations between Andrew users and developers. Send mail to
info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu to be added to the Andrew mailing
list (or to request any other service that we provide, like hard copy
documentation or redistribution of contributed materials). The
info-andrew-bugs@andrew.cmu.edu address provides an easy method for
reporting bugs in the software to members of the ITC (it is not a public
distribution list).

There is also a netnews distribution list, called comp.soft-sys.andrew,
which is identical to the info-andrew distribution list except that it
does not support the multi-media capabilities of info-andrew.

Finally, there is an andrew-demos mailing list to which interesting
ATK/Messages demos are sometimes posted (you must have AMS running to
see the demos).  To subscribe, send mail to
andrew-demos-request@andrew.cmu.edu.

Regards,

	Tom Neuendorffer 			Manager, ATK group
	Information Technology Center  	Internet: 	tpn@andrew.cmu.edu
	Carnegie Mellon University		UUCP:	..!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!tpn
	4910 Forbes Ave.			Fax:	(412) 268-6787
	Pittsburgh, Pa. 15213-3890
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Date: 6 Jul 90 16:38:32 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons
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>That's the purpose of this mailing list.  Share your problems with
>everyone, and you'll soon have a solution to your problem.

Okay, here's my .AMS.flames file:


(defun datri-mail-hook	(msg)
;  (process-mapped-mailbox
;   msg
;   "mail"
;   "denver"
;   '("from")
;   "mail"
;   (ReplyAddr msg "s")
;   NIL
;   "your mail has been rejected")
  (post-by-keyword
   msg
   "mail"
   '(
     (("subject")("[^:]* cpypfiles" "^doallpasswd output$" "^convex mapmake" "forwmail output" "Dump status.*" "^files updated by rdist.*" )("cron"))
     (("to" "cc" "received") ("datri\\+cron") ("cron"))
     (("subject")("backing up.*at.*today" "[a-zA-Z0-9]*, ... .*") ("cron"))
     ))
)

(load "flib") ; The standard flames library



The above is pretty much right out of the @i(help) document.  The
post-by-keyword bit works great, but I've had no success with the
part that's commented.  What I'm trying to do is reject mail from a given
user, changed here to "denver".
--
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Date: Mon,  9 Jul 90 09:10:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Scott Hassan <hassan@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
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Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: EnterNotify and Leave Notify Mouse Events?

\begindata{text,2635112}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}


Is there anyway in the Andrew Toolkit for an view object to track the pointers 
movements when entering and leaving its view rectangle.  


I would like the object to update the screen when the mouse enters.  Is there 
any hope?  Do \typewriter{view_handlers} have anything to do with it? 


				Thanks,


				Scott Hassan

				\smaller{hassan@informatics.wustl.edu

				Medical Informatics

				Department of Internal Medicine

				Washington University

				St. Louis, MO   63130

				(314) 362-3422

}\enddata{text,2635112}

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I am trying to make an Andrew application to interact with Oracle RDBMS.
I added the proper included statements and embedded SQL statements in 
a .c file together with the class methods and procedures, run it through
the CPP (Oracle C preprocessor that produces c code) and the let the
make do the rest of the job.
cc runs fine with no objections.
The problem arise when makedo tries to make a do.
I get lots of unresolveds from doload.
like : 
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqllo2
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlsca
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlbs2
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlsch
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlscc
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqltfl
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlopn
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlosq
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlad2
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlexe
dofix:  Undefined:  _sqlfch
doload:  Errors while prodoload:  Undefined symbol: _sqlsca
doload:  Undefined symbol: _sqllo2
I tried to add the appropriate libraries to the ld line in makedo
that gives a different list like l

dofix:  Undefined:  _ttyname
dofix:  Undefined:  _strrchr
dofix:  Undefined:  _strchr
dofix:  Undefined:  _memcmp
dofix:  Undefined:  _memcmp
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  _fork
dofix:  Undefined:  _strncat
dofix:  Undefined:  _execve
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  _shmat
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _shmdt
dofix:  Undefined:  _shmctl
dofix:  Undefined:  _semctl
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _wait
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _wait
dofix:  Undefined:  _shmget
dofix:  Undefined:  _semop
dofix:  Undefined:  _getuid
dofix:  Undefined:  _getgid
dofix:  Undefined:  _shmctl
dofix:  Undefined:  _getppid
dofix:  Undefined:  _semget
dofix:  Undefined:  _pipe
dofix:  Undefined:  _pipe
dofix:  Undefined:  _fork
dofix:  Undefined:  _strncat
dofix:  Undefined:  _execve
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  _getppid
dofix:  Undefined:  _wait
dofix:  Undefined:  _getppid
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _times
dofix:  Undefined:  _getrusage
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  _getrusage
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  Fflts
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  _getenv
dofix:  Undefined:  _strchr
dofix:  Undefined:  _pipe
dofix:  Undefined:  _pipe
dofix:  Undefined:  _fork
dofix:  Undefined:  _strncat
dofix:  Undefined:  _execve
dofix:  Undefined:  _strcat
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdtos
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Fstod
dofix:  Undefined:  Ffltd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Ffltd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  Fmuld
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdivd
dofix:  Undefined:  Fdtos
dofix:  Undefined:  _memcmp
dofix:  Undefined:  _memcmp
doload:  Errors while processing
doload:  Undefined symbol: _ttyname
doload:  Undefined symbol: _strrchr
doload:  Undefined symbol: _strchr
doload:  Undefined symbol: _memcmp
doload:  Undefined symbol: _strcat
doload:  Undefined symbol: _fork
doload:  Undefined symbol: _strncat
doload:  Undefined symbol: _execve
doload:  Undefined symbol: _shmat
doload:  Undefined symbol: _semop
doload:  Undefined symbol: _shmdt
doload:  Undefined symbol: _shmctl
doload:  Undefined symbol: _semctl
doload:  Undefined symbol: _wait
doload:  Undefined symbol: _shmget
doload:  Undefined symbol: _getuid
doload:  Undefined symbol: _getgid
doload:  Undefined symbol: _getppid
doload:  Undefined symbol: _semget
doload:  Undefined symbol: _pipe
doload:  Undefined symbol: _getenv
doload:  Undefined symbol: _times
doload:  Undefined symbol: _getrusage
doload:  Undefined symbol: Fflts
doload:  Undefined symbol: Fstod
doload:  Undefined symbol: Fdivd
doload:  Undefined symbol: Fmuld
doload:  Undefined symbol: Fdtos


Can sombody tell me if it is at all possible what I am trying to do,
and if so how?
\enddata{text822, 75204}
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Date: Mon,  9 Jul 1990 12:42:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: dofix-problem
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References: <9007091441.AA13348@issun3.stc.nl>

\begindata{text,270132140}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{fieldheader
}
\define{fixedfieldcontent
}
\define{fieldcontent
}
From andrew/config/ImakeMacros.d:


\subsection{4.2.2	DynamicMultiObject}


\fieldheader{Syntax:}

\fixedfieldcontent{DynamicMultiObject(dobj, objs, libs, syslibs)}


\fieldheader{Arguments:}

\fieldcontent{dobj - final name for resulting dynamic object (with extension)

objs - space separated list of object (.o) files

libs - space separated list of library (.a) files which dobj can be dependent 
upon

syslibs - space separated list of system library files to be linked against

(most common use: -lm  for the math library)}


\fieldheader{Note:}

\fieldcontent{All arguments need not be present - but the commas must be 
there, and the arguments which are to be filled in should be in the correct 
place with respect to the commas.}


\fieldheader{Expanded Macro:}

\fixedfieldcontent{all:: dobj


dobj: objs libs

	$(MAKEDO) $(MAKEDOFLAGS) -o dobj objs libs syslibs}


\fieldheader{Use:}

\fieldcontent{Use for creating dynamic object files that are dependent upon 
several object (.o) files and/or library (.a) files and/or system library 
files.}


Put a line like this in your Imakefile, re-run genmake and see if that helps.


Gary Keim

ATK Group

\enddata{text,270132140}

\enddata{text822, 81061}
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: help

help
\enddata{text822, 83571}
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Date: 9 Jul 90 15:52:09 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!icdoc!qmw-cs!numb@uunet.uu.net  (Matthew Humble Worm Newman)
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.
Subject: Patches to Andrew
Message-Id: <2486@sequent.cs.qmw.ac.uk>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

I have just brought up the andrew system on X.V11R4, straight from the dist 
tape. I have brought it up on SunOS 4.1 on a Sun 4/280 (sparc).

Are there any official patches to the andrew toolkit that I need to apply,
and if so where do I get them from, and also does anybody know when there
is going to be 'offical' support for SunOS 4.1.

I'm have quite a lot of problems with it at the moment as the applications keep
on core-dumping from time to time, with a heavily corrupted stack.

Aside from that the seems to be some bitmap corruption as well.

All in all though it is great and I hope to 'spread the word' amongst fellow
staff in our department, so any help anyone can give as to the above problems
would be gratefully appriciated.
-- 

ARPA:      numb%cs.qmw.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk | Matthew Simon Philip Newman
JANET:     numb@uk.ac.qmw.cs                    | Systems Programmer
UUCP:      numb@qmw-cs.uucp                     | Computer Science Dept
AppleLink: UK0087                               | QMW, University of London
Voice:     +44 71 975 5233 (Direct Dial)        | Mile End Road
Fax:       +44 81 980 6533			| London E1 4NS, UK

"To imagine is everything.
                        - Albert Einstein"
\enddata{text822, 84537}
\begindata{text822, 87062}
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 1990 12:34:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Anderson <dba+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: mcsun!ukc!icdoc!qmw-cs!numb@uunet.uu.net (Matthew Humble Worm Newman)
Subject: Re: Patches to Andrew
CC: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <YaaRZhm00VtpA=d3g=@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <2486@sequent.cs.qmw.ac.uk>,
	<YaaRZhm00VtpA=d3g=@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,270169832}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 10-Jul-90 Re: Patches to 
Andrew Susan Straub (382+0)}


\quotation{2.  you can send mail to info-andrew-service

}

Actually, that should be andrew-service@andrew.cmu.edu -- here's some of the 
help doc:


\display{To reach a particular service, send mail to

     ``andrew-service+servicename@andrew.cmu.edu'',

where ``servicename'' is the name of the service.  For example, to make a 

request of the Archive service, please address your mail to

     ``andrew-service+archive@andrew.cmu.edu''.

All the services will respond to a request for help if you send a message 

with the word ``help'' as the only word on a line in the body

of the message.


If you have a problem with any service, or with the andrew-service itself,

please send mail addressed to 

     ``andrew-service+servicename-customer-service@andrew.cmu.edu'' 

and someone will attend to your needs.


Available services are:


\description{archive -- Provides access to the set of released Andrew programs 
(ATK/AMS/ODA).

finger -- User lookup service.

customer-service -- Will forward your message to some person for handling.

}
Thank you for your patronage.

}\enddata{text,270169832}

\enddata{text822, 87062}
\begindata{text822, 89639}
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Message-Id: <YaaS_j_0M2YkM3cIFK@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 10:14:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Rohall <slr@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: dofix-problem
In-Reply-To: <9007091441.AA13348@issun3.stc.nl>
References: <9007091441.AA13348@issun3.stc.nl>

\begindata{text,2465488}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{index
menu:[Title~3,Index~91]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{indexi
menu:[Title~3,InvisibleIndex~92]
attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -2]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
I had an application last summer that had Oracle and ATK working fine 
together.  Then, Oracle produced a new release (version 6--we had been using 
version 5), and I couldn't get it to compile either.  Through appropriate 
munging of the makefile (by adding explicit ld's) I was able to get my errors 
down to the following:

\typewriter{	doload: Undefined symbol: _end

}But isn't end inserted by the loader itself?


After numerous calls to Oracle support and email with people at the ITC, my 
guess as to the problem was that Oracle v6 had been ``improved'' to be AT&T 
System V Unix compatible, whereas everything else we were using was BSD 
compatible.  The one suggestion I got was to recompile all of ATK using System 
V cc to see if that made the libraries compatible.  I didn't try this--my 
project went away for other reasons,  and the interface never worked again. 
 I'd be interesting in hearing if anybody has gotten this combination to work.

			-Steve.

\begindata{raster,5085480}
2 0 65536 65536 0 0 164 57
bits 5085480 164 57
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
n5cr |
g01Hc0h01fcGq |
g01Hf0h03fcGq |
g01Hf8h03fcfe	q |
g03Hf8h03f8fe	q |
g03Hf8h03f8fe	q |
g03Geff8h03f9	feq |
g03f803f8ge003	f9fcq |
g03f801f80ff8	07f1fc07feg1f	f00f8f01fch |
g07f803f83ffe	07f1fc1fG807f	fc0fG0fGh |
g07f807f07fG07	f1fc7fGc0Gfe1f	G1fG80g |
g07He0H8ff3fc	He3H1ffe3fGc0	g |
g07Hc1G3f8ff3	f8He7H1ffe7fG	e0g |
g0fH83fc1fcfe3	f9fe1fe7f87f1f	feG0fe0g |
g0fHc3f81fcfe3	f9fc0feff03fbf	f0fe07e0g |
g0fG1fe3Hdfe3	fbfcg4ff03fbf	c0G1fe0g |
g0fe007f7Hdfe7	f3f8g0fe0!3f80	He0g |
g0fe007f7Hdfc7	f3f8g0fe0!3f80	He0g |
g0fe007f7Hdfc7	f3f8g0fe07f3f	81He0g |
g1fe00ff7f0g1f	c7f7f80fcfe0!7f	01fe3fe0g |
g1fHe7f0g1fcf	f3f81fdfe0!7f	01f8i |
g1fHe7f87f3fcf	e3f83fdfe0fe7f	01fcgc0g |
g3fHe3H3f8fe3	H8ff1fe7fgfe3f	c0g |
g3fHc3H3f8fe1	H8fGfc7fgHc0g |
g3fH81Gfe7f9f	e1H07Gf8feg7f	G80g |
g3fGfeg7ffc7f	9fe07ffe01Gf0	feg3fGh |
g1fbfe0g1fe07f	1fc01ff8gGe0fe	g1ffch |
s0ei01e0h |
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
zg |
g01c0x |
g0ff0x |
g1c38x |
g33cc78020eu |
g27ec7c0a1fk05	h1ei08h |
g66646dfe317b	fbfa5e9cG39ce	136318c04eh |
g44667ffb307f	Gfe7f!fdGfe1f	GbdHh |
g4c664ffe30cf	!4e73e0fdcf3e	1fHfb09h |
g6ffe7fee3bde	4e4ff3f7fdef3f	33Hfb09h |
g3ffc78ca1f7a	4a4bf3bdGfb3e	13H!f9h |
g310cx |
g1838x |
g0ff0x |
g01c0x |
zg |
zg |
zg |
\enddata{raster, 5085480}
\view{rasterview,5085480,12,0,0}
\smaller{\bold{Steven L. Rohall

}}\bold{\smaller{445 South Street, Room 2B-284

Morristown, NJ 07960-2742

(201)829-5203

slr@thumper.bellcore.com}

}\enddata{text,2465488}

\enddata{text822, 89639}
\begindata{text822, 93864}
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X-Added: With Flames (ak99 v2.2)
Return-path: <oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 90 17:03:23 met
From: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Message-Id: <9007041503.AA21855@mdl.bull.fr>
To: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Subject: preference file



  Hi everybody,

   1) I tried to edit my preference file as shown in the file prefs.tutr 
      (preference tutorial) 


	>Changing your preferences is as simple as editing and saving your 
	>preferences.  To do this, type 
	>
	>	ez preferences
	>
	>in your Typescript window and press Enter.  
	> .......

	But my AMS environment has not been altered. May be I missed 
	something, so please tell me where is the directory in which I have
	to store the "preferences" file. I assumed that it was in my home
	directory, was I wrong?

	
    2)  what is the name of the file in which my own messages options are 
	stored, after I alter my own option by choosing the menu 
	"set options"


    thanks in advance


  -- Jean-Luc Oun, Bull			----------------------------------
  Software Development Methodology	email: oun@cl.bull.fr
  Les-Clayes(Paris), France		tel: (33) (1) 34 62 70 00 ext. 6374
\enddata{text822, 93864}
\begindata{text822, 96039}
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 13:51:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
Subject: Re: preference file
CC: oun@clbull.cl.bull.fr
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References: <9007041503.AA21855@mdl.bull.fr>

\begindata{text,19440764}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Messages looks for various options in your ~/preferences (or ~/.preferences or 
~/.Xdefaults) file only when it starts up.  If you start Messages and then 
edit your ~/preferences file, that incarnation of Messages won't see your 
changes.  You should quit your first Messages and start another.


Yes, the file ``preferences'' should be stored in your home directory, 
whatever the value of the environment variable HOME is.


The options that Messages sets in ``Set Options'' are stored in special fields 
of your ~/preferences file.  If you do Set Options, and then save over your 
~/preferences file from a text editor that you had loaded an old copy of your 
~/preferences file into, you've overwritten your Set Options values.


		Craig

\enddata{text,19440764}

\enddata{text822, 96039}
\begindata{text822, 98131}
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 16:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anthony Edwards <tobeye@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: messages - a confession

\begindata{text,268597040}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
I am a big \bold{messages} supporter at our site.  I think it really enhances 
mail messages to be able to use italic, special fonts, or insets.


However, I have a confession.


I don't always use \bold{messages}.  I use \bold{/ucb/mail} as well. 
 \bold{Messages} is just \italic{too} slow.  I have a .AMS.flames file which 
is very busy (it sorts up to 50 user ids into one of 12 folders).  We're also 
connected via AFS 3.0 to CMU's bboards (thus how I read info-andrew).  Just to 
read in new mail (say 2 to 4 messages) can take up to a minute.  That's 
ridiculous.  I find myself telling \bold{messages} to read my mail and then 
coming back to the program 5 minutes later to see what mail I got.  THEN, 
clicking on mail messages doesn't promptly bring up my message.  I typcially 
see a 2-4 second delay.  (Remember that the typical user's patience is .5 
seconds for computer response).


So, these days, I typically read my mail with \bold{/ucb/mail} (unless it's 
ATK formatted) and then let \bold{messages} go and sort my mail into 
appropriate folders.


Do other people have similar problems?  To be fair, my problem may stem from 
my heavy use of FLAMES (so, therefore, maybe I should be flaming FLAMES...?)


I remember a discussion a while back initiated by Nathaniel to take the 
dynamic loading out of these ATK programs to improve their speed.  Maybe that 
could be a workable solution.


(System spec:  I'm running messages on an IBM RT, running AOS 4.3, with 8 Mb 
of memory.  I may have the memory for UNIX, X, and Messages to all run 
happily, but then where's the memory for me to do what my job is...?)


   - \underline{Anthony}

\enddata{text,268597040}

\enddata{text822, 98131}
\begindata{text822, 101933}
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Message-ID: <MaaZ4xi00VsaQ2yCFl@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 1990 18:05:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Miles Bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Blat: Foop

I know few andrew users that actually use an AMS mailer to read their mail.
I use more(!).  If it's something I want to deal with, I'll let AMS churn on
it for a while and answer it later.

The process could almost certainly be sped up (at what cost, I don't know),
but dynamic loading time is not the problem (it's just as mind-bendingly slow
when you're using a long-running messages).  I also doubt that not having the
AMS code be shared (a side-effect of it's being dynamically loaded) is any
big deal, since very few people run >1 simultaneous AMS programs [although
there might be things like AFS libraries that might be productively shared
between, say, AMS & console; I'm not really sure].

-Miles
\enddata{text822, 101933}
\begindata{text822, 103792}
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 18:39:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Anthony Edwards <tobeye@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>

\begindata{text,18930984}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I use Messages all the time for my mail.  Am I an exception among Andrew 
users?  For that matter, several folks at Transarc use Messages all the time 
even though ATK isn't officially supported here.


When I had a Flames file, I thought that it slowed down the incorporation of 
new mail a lot.  I ultimately traced the problem down to the fact that I was 
running Messages 7.8 (on a pmax), whereas the current Messages 7.14 contains a 
substantial performance fix so that Flames-based message incorporation goes 
MUCH faster.


If your complaint is about message-incorporation time, try eliminating your 
.AMS.flames file and seeing if that makes a timing difference.  If so, try 
building a newer Messages with newer source files.


This particular machine is pretty rich, so displaying the next message is a 
pretty quick operation (or quick enough for me).  It will usually be 
pre-fetched, and the ATK-related overhead of building the display seems 
manageable.  I just tried a couple of tests, and it seems like it's a 1-second 
delay or less.  (Fresh copy of Messages, file servers not that distant.  Yes, 
this old Messages (7.8) also eats/leaks memory, so you have to restart it 
occasionally or it will really bog down.)


		Craig

\enddata{text,18930984}

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Message-ID: <EaaaC6_00VsaA2y0sg@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 1990 19:23:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Miles Bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: grammar
In-Reply-To: <MaaZ4xi00VsaQ2yCFl@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
	<MaaZ4xi00VsaQ2yCFl@andrew.cmu.edu>
Blat: Foop

Ahem.

Miles Bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> AMS code be shared (a side-effect of it's being dynamically loaded) is any
				       ^^^^ delete
> big deal, since very few people run >1 simultaneous AMS programs [although
	    "AMS program simultaneously" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> there might be things like AFS libraries that might be productively shared
						^^^^^ "could"

-Miles
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 17:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>

Yes, even I have the same problem from time to time.  My own observation
is that the performance of Messages is very critically sensitive to a
number of factors:  system memory, paging, and file system & network
performance.  When all is going well, Messages runs quite quickly, but
when any of these factors becomes a problem, performance deteriorates
quickly and dramatically.  The bottom line, I guess, is that Messages
uses a lot of resources and the performance degradation when any of them
is scarce is not what you'd call graceful.

What I don't know is an easy way to determine what the problem is in any
specific circumstance.  Basically, it's just trial and error.  (For
example, you could try getting rid of  your FLAMES file temporarily to
see if that's the problem, though I doubt that it is unless it is very
inefficiently written.  Similarly, you could temporarily move your
.MESSAGES tree onto the local disk to see if your file system is the
problem.)

The specific behavior you describe sounds most likely to be
file-system-related to me.  2 to 4 second delays when you click to read
a new message are just unreasonable.  They don't happen to me here.  If
they happen to you regularly, I'd suspect the file system.  Does it take
that long to "cat" an arbitrary file in the messages database?  If so,
the file system is definitely the problem.  If not, the next question
would be how much swapping is going on...  -- Nathaniel
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 19:09:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: PS -- Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>

Also, you should bear in mind, in trying to understand this problem,
that /usr/ucb/mail doesn't do any file write operations at all in order 
-- it just reads the /usr/spool/mail/xxx file and prints out parts of it
as needed.  There are a number of technical reasons why this is a
terrible idea, but it tends to be a lot faster ESPECIALLY when, as is
usually the case, /usr/spool/mail is on the local disk but ~/.MESSAGES
is on a file server somewhere...
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 18:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, tobeye@northstar.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>

I use messages exclusively (on a Sun-4/260, 32MB, SunOS 4.0.3).  Even
over the phone lines on a X terminal...  I have a fairly bulky
.AMS.flames file.  It does take too long (5-15 seconds) to sort, say,
10, new messages.  But individual messages come up instantly, and any
delays seem to correlate well with file-server problems.

I wonder if running a daemon cui job that continuously read and sorted
your mail would help?  It would break tools like biff or the console
mail display, but it would offload the sorting overhead.

My pet peeve is message drop-off time between `sendmessage' and
/usr/lib/sendmail.  It hangs for dozens of seconds -- unlike /bin/Mail,
or GNU Emacs's version of sendmail.  Why is that?  And why should the
mail-reading tool be locked up during that time?  Why isn't that forked
off in the background?  Are there some sendmail switches set wrong?

Bill
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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 08:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
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References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,2889120}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 10-Jul-90 Re: messages - 
a confession Bill Janssen@parc.xerox. (882)}


\quotation{My pet peeve is message drop-off time between `sendmessage' and} 
\quotation{/usr/lib/sendmail.  It hangs for dozens of seconds -- unlike 
/bin/Mail,} \quotation{or GNU Emacs's version of sendmail.  Why is that?  And 
why should the} \quotation{mail-reading tool be locked up during that time? 
 Why isn't that forked} \quotation{off in the background?  Are there some 
sendmail switches set wrong?

}
Yes -- there are sendmail switches set wrong for all other mailers in the 
world, and only AMS sets them right.  When AMS tells you "your message has 
been sent" it means it.  Other mailers quickly come back and pretend 
everything is OK when it isn't really.


If you're willing to live with the risks that other mailers give you -- 
notably that sendmail will die right away for lack of memory and your mail 
will never get sent and you'll never hear about it -- it is very easy to make 
things work faster.  Just use the "OldSendmailProgram" AndrewSetup variable to 
point to something other than /usr/lib/sendmail for your "sendmail" program. 
 The thing it points to can be a shell script that calls sendmail with 
whatever options you like; just don't complaint to me when you find that your 
mail occasionally disappears into a black hole.


Actually, while I'm confessing things, I think I'd like to go on record as 
believing that many of Messages' performance problems can be traced to the 
fact that we tried to make it extremely reliable, more so than other mailers. 
 I just had an exchange of personal mail with Bill Cattey on the topic, and 
I'll quote from what I told him on the subject of why it sometimes takes a 
long time to incorporate new mail from your mailbox into the AMS database:


---------------- Begin long quotation from mail to Bill Cattey 
----------------


I hate to say it, but I think the real problem is that the code is too 
careful, and thus tends to amplify any file system performance problems. 
 Consider the basic "inc" scenario where you take a single piece of mail out 
of /usr/spool/mail/xxx and put it into .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (this comes from 
memory so it may miss a step or two):


\leftindent{\description{1.  Open /usr/spool/mail/xxx.


2.  Lock  /usr/spool/mail/xxx.


3.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir


4.  Lock .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir


5.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/.AMS_DIRMOD (This will be our trace if thing get 
aborted mid-operation)


6.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


7.  Write  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


8.  Close  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


9.  Write .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir


10.  Fsync .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir  (We don't close it now because we may be 
processing multiple things, but we need to fsync it to make the data safe.)


11.  Unlink .MESSAGES/yyy/.AMS_DIRMOD


12.  Truncate /usr/spool/mail/xxx to zero length.


13.  Close .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir

}}
Now, all of these steps can be justified as necessary in terms of reliability. 
 But consider what a mail interface that was willing to trade off a little 
reliability for some performance could do instead (and I believe this is what 
many mailers actually do):


\description{\leftindent{1.  Open /usr/spool/mail/xxx.


2.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir


3.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


4.  Write  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


5.  Close  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


6.  Write .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir


7.  Truncate /usr/spool/mail/xxx to zero length.


8.  Close .MESSAGES/yyy/.MS_MsgDir

}}
So by eliminating all the locking and synchronization, we've also eliminated 
over a third of the network file system calls.  Now consider an interface like 
MH, which (if I recall correctly) doesn't have any index files.  It's file 
system calls could be reduced to the following:


\leftindent{\description{1.  Open /usr/spool/mail/xxx.


2.  Open .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


3.  Write  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


4.  Close  .MESSAGES/yyy/+zzz (the body file)


5.  Truncate /usr/spool/mail/xxx to zero length.

}}
Now, actually I think that MH (like nearly all mailers) does lock the 
/usr/spool/mail file, but doesn't have any index files and doesn't lock 
anything else.  This means that it does 6 file system operations where AMS 
does 13.  I seriously doubt that you need to look any further to find the 
performance differences on the "inc" operation.


---------------- End quotation ----------------


Now, for a mail system explicitly designed for large-scale bboard support, a 
lack of index files would be crazy.  And we were just dead serious about 
making the system really reliable -- possibly too serious, but I still don't 
believe that.  The bottom line is that if you try to build a reliable database 
on top of a distributed UNIX file system, it's going to be VERY slow.  Most 
mailers give up on reliability, we gave up some speed.  You pays your money & 
you takes your choice...


Now, one thing that wouldn't be too hard to add to AMS would be a 
"LiveDangerously" preference.  It could avoid a lot of file locking and 
fsync'ing and could give sendmail the "fork and be happy" option.  There would 
really be a minimal amount of coding necessary to provide such an option, and 
AMS would then be as unreliable as any other mailer, but I'd really hate to do 
it -- people would lose mail and then complain about AMS losing their mail!


Well, the above diatribe may not make AMS run any faster for you, but perhaps 
it will give you some more insight into what it's doing when it's too slow... 
   -- Nathaniel

\enddata{text,2889120}

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Message-Id: <kaalgvH0_csmM_Hl0=@icase.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 08:27:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Crockett <tom@icase.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 1895+0
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If-Type-Unsupported: alter
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: messages - a confession
In-Reply-To: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>

\begindata{text,2861952}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Well, I use \bold{messages} exclusively, running on a Sun 4/60 with 16 MB, and 
the performance is generally quite good (I started out using it on a 4 MB 
diskless Sun 3/50, which was just plain \italic{awful}).  Because it takes so 
long to start up, I usually fire it up at most once a day, and just use the 
\typewriter{\bold{Check New Messages}} or \typewriter{\bold{Read Mail}} menu 
entries to fetch incoming mail.  I usually have no significant delays when 
clicking on a new mail message  -- it's usually pretty snappy, even though my 
\bold{~/.MESSAGES} directory and our local bulletin boards are on remote 
fileservers.


I have to agree, though, that FLAMES is unacceptably slow.  Surely there is 
room for improvement here, but maybe not within the context of an embedded 
Lisp interpreter.  Which brings me to another pet peeve I have with FLAMES. 
 Our shop is heavily into scientific computing and numerical analysis, i.e. 
FORTRAN, and very few of our users are at all comfortable with Lisp.  For 
computer scientists, a Lisp-based mail sorting language may be O.K., but it's 
pretty intimidating for a lot of our engineers and mathematicians.  Given that 
one of the most useful features of \bold{messages} is its ability to sort 
mail, I think a simpler, faster, more accessible interface is definitely in 
order.


I've also considered running a \bold{cui} daemon to sort my personal mail, as 
Bill Janssen suggests.  While this does have some disadvantages, it should 
help to hide the sorting delays incurred by FLAMES.  We're running a bulletin 
board daemon which does just that for public folders, and it works fine.


Overall, though, I think \bold{messages} is the greatest thing since sliced 
bread.


\italic{Tom Crockett}


\smaller{\bold{ICASE}

Institute for Computer Applications in Science and Engineering


\smaller{M.S. 132C				e-mail:  tom@icase.edu

NASA Langley Research Center		phone:  (804) 864-2182

Hampton,  VA  23665-5225

} 
\smaller{ }}\smaller{ } 
                                                                       

\enddata{text,2861952}

\enddata{text822, 122547}
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
X-External-Networks: yes
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 16:35:18 -0500
From: "Robert A. Dodson" <RDODSON@IBM.COM>


Is there any way to list the users currently klog'ed into
an AFS cell??

           Robert Dodson
           rdodson@ibm.com


\enddata{text822, 126066}
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Message-Id: <QabAPTO0M2YtA6y4dL@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 14:52:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
In-Reply-To: <gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>

Actually, if you're running a very large site with AFS and lots of
users, and performance is slow, you should consider doing what I've been
recommending CMU do for years, without success:  Have everyone run AMS
with a remote messageserver on one (or a small number of) dedicated
messageserver machines.  Instead of having every workstation at the site
beating on the mail system, you'll have all its fs activity centralized,
maybe even on the local disk of the messageserver machine.   Using
preferences such as AMS_RemoteServer and AMS_RemoteLogin, and the "-S"
switch to Messages,  you can make this very painless -- it should work
just like it does now, only faster.  -- NB
\enddata{text822, 127408}
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Date: 12 Jul 90 21:01:29 GMT
From: fernwood!oracle!news@decwrl.dec.com  (Jonathan Levine)
Organization: Oracle, Belmont, CA, USA
Subject: Can a default printer be specified?
Message-Id: <1990Jul12.210129.21269@oracle.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


   As shipped, Andrew's print support prints to the printer named in the
$PRINTER environment variable.  Unfortunately, most of the people here want
to have their $PRINTER set to a non-postcript printer, but have their
Andrew output go to our postscript printer.  

   I've been trying to get print.c to do this, by setting my .preferences file
print.spooldir, setting the AndrewSetup SpoolDir, and setting the site.h
print_SPOOLDIR.  None of these actions seem to override the $PRINTER
variable; they both merely change the default on ez's Set Printer menu
option.  That is, when I select Set Printer, I get: 

"Current printer is <$PRINTER>.  Set printer to [print.SpoolDir]:"

whereas what I'd like to get is:

"Current printer is <print.SpoolDir>.  Set printer to:"

   Is there any way to do what I want to do, short of hardcoding the
postscript printer's name in the print_PRINTCOMMAND?  Enquiring users want
to know. 

Thanks,

Jon



-----------------------------------------------------------------
From the Oracle*Desk of:		"Paradise is exactly like
Jonathan Levine 			 where you are right now,
Oracle*Mail Development			 only much, much better."
\enddata{text822, 129654}
\begindata{text822, 132094}
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Message-ID: <EabGMjm00Vt1Q9s0dq@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 1990 21:38:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 1596+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
Enclosure: ---- Enclosure ----
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    fernwood!oracle!news@decwrl.dec.com (Jonathan Levine)
Subject: Re: Can a default printer be specified?
In-Reply-To: <1990Jul12.210129.21269@oracle.com>
References: <1990Jul12.210129.21269@oracle.com>

\begindata{text,270215844}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\italic{Question, how to get ATK printing to send to a printer other than the 
users $PRINTER environment. 

}\center{
}\bigger{\center{You asked for it ,

and here it is\bold{\bigger{

the Worlds Smallest ATK Application}}}

}
The following shar file contains the code for a dynamicly loaded object that 
will reset the environment for ATK according to the environment variable 
$ATKPRINTER, or set it to "DefaultPrinterName"if ATKPRINTER is unset . Of 
course, you could modify it to do any number of things to calculate the proper 
printer for a given user. The trick is to add the following line to the global 
.atkinit file, so that this routine is always called when atk starts up.


\example{load sp

}
It has also been noted that you could just make shell scripts or aliases for 
the various atk programs that unsets the PRINTER variable before they run.


	Have Fun,

		Tom Neuendorffer


---- Enclosure ----


: This is a shar archive.  Extract with sh, not csh.

echo x - sp.c

sed -e 's/^X//' > sp.c << ''

X#include <class.h>

X#include <environ.ih>

X#include <sp.eh>

Xboolean sp__InitializeClass(ClassID)

Xstruct classheader *ClassID;

X\{

X    char *printer;

X    printer = environ_Get("ATKPRINTER");

X    if(printer == NULL || *printer == '\\0') printer = "DefaultPrinterName";

X    environ_Put("PRINTER",printer);

X    return TRUE;

X\}


echo x - sp.ch

sed -e 's/^X//' > sp.ch << ''

Xpackage sp\{

Xclassprocedures:

X	InitializeClass() returns boolean;

X\};


echo x - Imakefile

sed -e 's/^X//' > Imakefile << ''

XDOBJS=  sp.do

XIHFILES =  sp.ih

X

XNormalObjectRule()

XNormalATKRule()

X

XDependTarget()

XInstallClassFiles($\{DOBJS\}, $\{IHFILES\})


exit


---- Enclosure ----

\enddata{text,270215844}

\enddata{text822, 132094}
\begindata{text822, 135199}
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Message-Id: <0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 19:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu,
        Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
In-Reply-To: <gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
 	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>

I hate to say it, but between the three mailers I've really had
experience with (VAX/VMS mail, GNU Emacs RMAIL, and Andrew messages),
`messages' is the only one that has lost mail on me.  I'm not sure the
code that takes the UNIX mail spool file and puts it into ~/Mailbox is
all that careful, as in one case I lost about 12 messages because I
chose "Check New Messages" while my home disk was (inadvertently) full. 
They just disappeared somewhere, and I immediately added a new check to
my trouble light in `console'.  In another instance, I missed many
messages because they had been appended to the preceeding message.  The
code that splits the mail spool file was either too picky, or not
enough, I don't remember, and all the odd names in the Xerox mail
messages gave it grief.

Both problems were with version 6.xx of messages, I haven't had problems
with 7.14 yet.

Bill
\enddata{text822, 135199}
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Date: 12 Jul 90 19:19:37 GMT
From: hpl-opus!hpspdra!burdick@hplabs.hpl.hp.com  (Matt Burdick)
Organization: HP Stanford Park - Palo Alto, CA
Subject: AFS questions
Message-Id: <16530001@hpspdra.HP.COM>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

I'm interested in finding out about AFS.  Specifically, I'm interested
in the version that Transarc will be providing to the OSF that will
use NCS.

What are the semantics of using it?  If /dopey/usr/tmp is the path to
the /usr/tmp file on machine dopey, are all of the hosts you can
connect to located in the root directory, or do file system calls
recognize that the topmost directory is actually a machine name and
handle it accordingly?  What is an AFS cell anyway?

Can someone point me in the direction of a document that will answer
this sort of question about AFS? 

						Thanks,
						-matt
-- 
Matt Burdick                |   Hewlett-Packard
burdick@hpspd.spd.hp.com    |   Intelligent Networks Operation
\enddata{text822, 137746}
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Message-Id: <QabPNzO0M2Yt48GGsv@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 07:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
In-Reply-To: <0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
 	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

Sigh... I guess I asked for that.

I also guess I'd not be surprised to find that the least robust piece of
AMS, as far as the posibility of losing mail goes, is the piece that
takes things out of /usr/spool/mail and puts it into the Mailbox
directory, since that part isn't used at CMU and was only added for the
non-CMU release.

It's too bad you didn't report the problem when it happened; we might
have stood a better chance of tracking it down when the trail was warm. 
Nonetheless I'm going to go take a peek at that code and see if there's
anything that might be a bug of this sort, lingering since version
6.xx...
\enddata{text822, 139728}
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Message-Id: <YabPbRG0M2Yt88GHMX@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 08:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Cc: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>, info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew-bugs+@andrew.cmu.edu, Bob Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
Subject: AMS Loses mail
In-Reply-To: <0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
 	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

Given Bill Janssen's belated bug report that he actually lost mail once
with AMS back in version 6.XX, I've gone to the code to see how it could
happen.  It does in fact appear possible that if you're running without
AMS delivery and your home directory is full, you could lose mail.  The
problem is that in ams/libs/ms/cvtold.c, there are a couple of calls to
writeall() which DO NOT CHECK THEIR RETURN VALUE!!!    (These are at
lines 251 and 257 in my version.)

The fix is simple and essential, since this is what I'd consider a very
major bug.   The fix is to make sure that writeall is returning an
integer that is the same as its third argument.  If it isn't, we should
error out with code something like this:

if (writeall(...) != ...) {
	errsave = errno;
	fclose(fp);
	close(wfd);
	if (AMS_StrictStandaloneLocking) rmlock(CurLock, LockFD);
	AMS_RETURN_ERRCODE(errsave, EIN_WRITE, EVIA_CONVERTINCOMING);
}

I hope you'll make this fix in an upcoming patch.  Thanks.  -- Nathaniel

PS -- Bill, as far as the other problem is concerned (where several
messages were appended together), there are three possibilities.  One is
that you've got AMS configured wrong -- there are several ways to tell
AMS how to find the boundaries between messages in /usr/spool/mail,
because there are several known formats for different UNIX variants. 
Another is that you had a particularly pathological case, for which we'd
need to see the messages in question.  Another, of course, is that there
is an AMS bug.  I'd encourage you to send us the appended-together
mesages if you still have them, or if this ever happens to you again. 
-- Nathaniel
\enddata{text822, 142022}
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Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 16:07:25 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Pieter Verhaeghe <pive%rucageo@vma.cc.cmu.edu>
To: +Andrew Info <info-andrew%andrew.cmu.edu%maze@vma.cc.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed

Maybe this can be a sugestion for further releases:
I've noticed that validating the recipients is very slow. So one can try
to implement the following scenario: when I use send/post from the menu
the message is saved in a directory (e.g. ~/.Mailqueue), then when
leaving messages (or choosing another menuoption) a new proces is
started, this proces validates the recipients and mails the message,
when for one or another reason this fails, it mails this message back to
the user so he/she can correct his/her mistakes. (I know, this is a very
rough scenario).




P. Verhaeghe
University of Antwerp, RUCA
Algebra / Geometry
Groenenborgerlaan 171
B-2020 Antwerpen, Belgium

Tel: +32 3 2180308
Fax: +32 3 2180217
Telex: RUCABI 33362

E-mail: pive@banruc01.bitnet (or pive@ccu.uia.ac.be)


\enddata{text822, 145418}
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Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 08:40:10 -0700
From: Martin Fong <fong@itstd.sri.com>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: fong@itstd.sri.com
Subject: Forthcoming Andrew Patches?

     When I had attended the Andrew Toolkit User's Group on 25 May
1990, there was a presentation describing ATK color enhancements and
some talk about a new patch set for Andrew.  Regarding ATK color, will
there be support for 8-bit color rasters?  Also, can anyone at CMU
provide a time frame within which the Andrew patches will be made
available?

     Thanks,

     Martin Fong			fong@itstd.sri.com

\enddata{text822, 148186}
\begindata{text822, 149629}
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Date: Fri, 13 Jul 1990 12:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 420+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
If-Type-Unsupported: alter
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Martin Fong <fong@itstd.sri.com>
Subject: Re: Forthcoming Andrew Patches?
In-Reply-To: <9007131540.AA06454@sitcom.itstd.sri.com>
References: <9007131540.AA06454@sitcom.itstd.sri.com>

\begindata{text,270215844}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
The next set of Andrew patches should be going out next week . Sorry for the 
delay, but a lot of changes were made, an overview of which will also be 
posted soon.   While better basic color support will be included in the 
basics, color raster support is still on the drawing board. 

Once patch 6 is out, we should be returning to a more regular schedule of 
patch releases.


	Thanks for your patience.


	Tom Neuendorffer

\enddata{text,270215844}

\enddata{text822, 149629}
\begindata{text822, 151396}
X-Andrew-Authenticated-As: 469;andrew.cmu.edu;Craig F. Everhart
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From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, pive@BANRUC01.BITNET
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
In-Reply-To: <4abRKR9Y0005RQhkpf@rucageo>
References: <4abRKR9Y0005RQhkpf@rucageo>

\begindata{text,19214172}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
This is how most mail systems handle user name validation: they don't validate 
anything at composition/submission time, and let erroneously-addressed 
messages get mailed back to the submitter.  You can achieve these semantics 
with AMS by disabling the validation of addresses as you see fit, generally in 
one of the AndrewSetup files.  The setup.help file describes the validations.


In brief, there are two kinds of things getting validated: local user names 
and remote mail destination names.  Local user names are validated according 
to the settings for the options:

	AMS_WPValidation

	AMS_PasswdValidation

	AMS_LocalDatabaseValidation

	AMS_AliasesValidation


(Non-local) destination mail domain names are validated according to the 
settings for the options:

	AMS_ValidateDestHosts

	AMS_HardHostValidationErrors

	AMS_DeliveryViaDomainMXAddress

	AMS_DeliveryViaDomainAddress

	AMS_DeliveryViaGethostbyname

	AMS_DeliveryViaHostTable


To turn off validation of local user names, set all the AMS_xxxValidation 
values to zero.  To turn off validation of remote destination mail domain 
names, set AMS_ValidateDestHosts to zero.


Once this is done, validation will happen only in the mail delivery agent, 
which you can generally get to mail error messages back to you.


Maybe it's only one part of the recipient validation that's taking a long 
time, or something that's slightly mis-configured for your environment. 
 Validation is supposed to be fast enough that you're willing to have it tell 
you right away if you made a typing mistake, but if it's getting in your way, 
turn it off.


		Craig


\enddata{text,19214172}

\enddata{text822, 151396}
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Message-Id: <IabWv4y0z7FZBRw1Ij@informatics.noname>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 15:27:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Scott Hassan <hassan@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 2052+3
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Rasters and RasterViews.

\begindata{text,2549712}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}


Hello,


I have been trying to work with the raster inset in order to create icons and 
labels.  I must be doing something wrong because grey lines always surround my 
rasters.  It's kind of annoying.  


My program code is as follows:

  

\begindata{bp,1229128}
\enddata{bp,1229128}
\view{bpv,1229128,4,0,0}

      do \{

	if((temp_book = bs_BookData(self->bookshelf)) != NULL)

	  \{

	    temp_info = book_GetInfo(temp_book);


	    book_width = (float)temp_info->size / ((float)self->min_size / 
(float)MIN_BOOK) ;

	    book_height = 60;


	    if(book_width > MAX_BOOK)

	      book_width = MAX_BOOK;


	    if(strcmp(temp_info->picloc,"") && temp_info->pic==NULL)

	      \{

		\bold{temp_info->pic = raster_New();

		temp_info->picview = rasterview_New();


		rasterview_SetDataObject(temp_info->picview, 

				            temp_info->pic);


		fp = fopen(temp_info->picloc, "r");

		raster_Read(temp_info->pic, fp, 1);

		fclose(fp);

		}

	      \}


	    if(temp_info->pic != NULL)

	      \{

	\bold{	RasterRect.width = raster_GetWidth(temp_info->pic);

		RasterRect.height = raster_GetHeight(temp_info->pic);

		}if(RasterRect.width > book_width)

		  book_width = RasterRect.width;

		else

		  RasterRect.width = book_width;


		book_height = RasterRect.height + 4;


		RasterRect.left = position;

		RasterRect.top = baseline - RasterRect.height - 2;

		

		\bold{rasterview_InsertView(temp_info->picview, self,  &RasterRect);

		rasterview_AutoCenter(temp_info->picview);

		rasterview_FullUpdate(temp_info->picview, view_FullRedraw, 0, 0, 50, 50);}

	      \}


\begindata{bp,2968280}
\enddata{bp,2968280}
\view{bpv,2968280,6,0,0}

\begindata{raster,2405176}
2 0 68266 68266 0 0 72 56
bits 2405176 72 56
g07m |
g8em |
g18m |
g38m |
g38m |
g20m |
g20m |
g30m |
g78m |
g30m |
g30m |
g30m |
g38m |
g3fm |
g3fc0l |
g2ff0l |
g2ffel |
g2fG80k |
g2ff9f0k |
g2dG9ck |
g2ffeGk |
g2fHc0j |
g2fG727eh3cg |
g2ddffc1fGeafe	g |
g2fGdc07Hfeg |
g2fG7c0180Gf7	80 |
g2f7ff4g61H70 |
g2fGfcg1fGfbb8 |
g2ddffcg07Hf8 |
g2fGfchHf8 |
g2fHh3fGf8 |
g2f7fGc0gbfGf8 |
g2fdfbff0g0fG	fc |
g2ddfGc00543G	fe |
g2fGfcg057fGfe |
g2fGc0g0287Gfe |
g2043c224g60G	fe |
g!2005887ebfG	fe |
g20g0f7ffbefG	fe |
g23Id7Hfe |
g2fH70g7fGfe |
g2fGe79cg1fGfe |
g2fdea77fbc0f	Gfe |
g208023Gc0e3G	fe |
g20g10Ge9f8Gfe |
g20g09Hfe7ffe |
g23Kdffe |
g2fGafGc07fGfe |
g2bGc7G807fGfe |
g6fde95GfdHfe |
g200e01HefGfe |
g70hHfbGfe |
g7201803fGfe3f	fe |
g67Ge7Ic7fe |
g7f8bf1Hf7fdfe |
g7ff1fc2f7ff7	Gfe |
\enddata{raster, 2405176}
\view{rasterview,2405176,1,0,0}	


You can see the problem if you click on the raster above and drag the mouse to 
create a region.  Then click in the text and the frame will change to a grey 
shade.


I was wondering if anyone has done work with the raster object and figured out 
what to do about this slight annoyance.


				Thanks, (in advance)

	


				Scott Hassan

				\smaller{hassan@informatics.wustl.edu

				Medical Informatics

				Department of Internal Medicine

				Washington University

				St. Louis, MO   63130

				(314) 362-3422


\bold{NOTE:}  Deleting this message is be considered desecration of the United 
States of America's National Flag.  

}\enddata{text,2549712}

\enddata{text822, 154355}
\begindata{text822, 159965}
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Message-Id: <QabYmfUGG02=NEb7dz@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 90 18:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>,
        Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Some REAL confessions about AMS speed
In-Reply-To: <QabPNzO0M2Yt48GGsv@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <waaY37C1eVVaMX24JW@northstar.dartmouth.edu>,
 	<MaaYMXW0M2Yt82iXsG@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<8aacULUB0KGW44iMMw@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gaalIh_0M2YtQ4MGFL@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<0abH1IUB0KGWALFBpP@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<QabPNzO0M2Yt48GGsv@thumper.bellcore.com>

My recollection of the problem with getting stuff from /usr/spool/mail
was that we now understood what it all was:

AMS reads from the begining of the spool file, and takes all the newer
messages.

Then it truncates /usr/spool/mail file.

The mail that went down the black hole was any mail that the user put
back in the /usr/spool/mail file from previous interactions with mailers
that allowed that to be done.  That mail was not taken by AMS because it
was old, and was not saved away, because AMS ostensibly truncated the
file without looking at all of it.

The solution was to make AMS not take input from /usr/spool/mail if it
noticed that the hold flag was set in either the person's local or
system wide mail configuration file.

As a side note, a couple of new AMS users are confused when they get the
error message complaining about this condition.  We've been telling them
to clear the hold bit.  I think we may occasionally forget to mention to
them that mail put back in /usr/spool will be lost if you use AMS on it.
 (Some history just seems to fall through the cracks...  :-)  )

I always felt that AMS should have been made smarter to actually
understand what all it was doing to the spool file, but I didn't say
anything at the time, because I didn't want to ask for  work on adding
hair to a subsystem that didn't affect me directly.

-wdc
\enddata{text822, 159965}
\begindata{text822, 163042}
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Message-ID: <sac_IcO00VsPQ0YX8S@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 1990 13:17:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Scott Hassan <hassan@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rasters and RasterViews.
In-Reply-To: <IabWv4y0z7FZBRw1Ij@informatics.noname>
References: <IabWv4y0z7FZBRw1Ij@informatics.noname>

\begindata{text,270571216}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 13-Jul-90 Rasters and 
RasterViews. Scott Hassan@informatics (2052+3)}


\quotation{You can see the problem if you click on the raster above and drag 
the mouse to create a region.  Then click in the text and the frame will 
change to a grey shade.

}
This is not a bug, it's a design decision.  The grey border indicates the 
current selection in the raster when the raster does not have the input focus. 
 When it once again gets the input focus the grey border turns to a black line 
inside a white line.


The ATK notion is that an inset is supposed to indicate whether it has the 
input focus or not.  In text this is done by completely removing the 
indication of the current selection, which unfortunately cannot be 
distinguished from the case where the selection is elsewhere in the file than 
the visible part of the file.  For rasters the choice was to change the 
selection border as indicated above.


If there is consensus as to how to indicate the focus/no-focus condition, the 
raster inset could be changed.


Fred Hansen

\enddata{text,270571216}

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Date: Sun, 15 Jul 1990 15:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Zalman Stern <zs01+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: ghost typescript problem

\begindata{text,269413100}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
When I started up a typescript it was connected to both the old one that had 
just died.  Shortly thereafter the old shell died for sure and the new 
typescript stopped working.  Here is the sequence of events:


a) running gdb in typescript/shell p1;  running the program being debugged

b) type control-X control-C into the typescript (by mistake)

	the typescript went away, but the window for the program did not

	(but the window with the program in it would not redraw)

c) selected New Typescript from the wm menu

d) the newtypescript was also p1 and shared the old shell

e) got a message  "(blocked waiting for tty input)" or some such

f) typed the "fg" command

	the useless window finally went away, and the typescript stopped working

g) brought up another typescript;  this one was p3 because the window for p1 
still existed

h) a ps in p3 showed that the p1 shell was gone, but that the p1 typescript 
still existed

	(indeed, the p1 typescript was still on the screen)


The problem seems to be that killing the typescript while gdb has a subprocess 
does not allow the shell to die.  The next typescript created uses that same 
shell, which dies as soon as the subprocess goes away (with the next wait3()). 



Fred Hansen\
\enddata{text,269413100}

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From: Martin Beer <MDB@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk>
To: SUSAN <SUSAN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject:        Re: Andrew on HP workstations

Thanks fot
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From: Martin Beer <MDB@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk>
To: SUSAN <SUSAN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject:        Re: Andrew on HP workstations

Thanks for the information

I have just collected the current develo[pment version,
to try it out when we go up to hpux7.0 later this week

Martin Beer.
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Forwarded:AMS & sendmail

\begindata{text,270315900}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 1990 12:04:10 MET DST

From: Haavard Eidnes <he@idt.unit.no>


Hello, ATK maintainers.


I'm the local person responsible for our mail system, and now I need to

participate in installing AMS. In connection with this I feel the need for

getting answered a couple of questions:


1) Is it possible to run AMS user agents and send/receive multi-media mail

   using this software while running a mail transport system using sendmail?


2) If the answer to 1) is negative, is it possible to run the AMS transport

   system while continuing to run sendmail?


I'm not ready to chuck out sendmail just to run AMS, since a lot of people

depend on our mail systems operation, and I don't feel confident that AMS

will integrate easy with our other mail user agents and servers. We use

POP2 and POP3 on Macs and on PCs, notification service for Macs, and have a

central mail host that takes care of mail delivery. On top of that, we have

a "happy" mix of SunOS 3.4 and SunOS 4.0, and we're only going to install

ATK on the SunOS 4.0 machines (too much work to do for 3.4, since we're

about to phase out 3.4 anyway).


- H\}vard

\enddata{text,270315900}

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X-Andrew-Authenticated-As: 469;andrew.cmu.edu;Craig F. Everhart
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Subject: Re: Forwarded:AMS & sendmail
CC: Haavard Eidnes <he@idt.unit.no>
In-Reply-To: <oacS5aC00VsW071G5E@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <oacS5aC00VsW071G5E@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,18865064}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Yes, it's possible to run AMS user agents and then send&receive multi-media 
mail.  That's how most sites use Messages.


Read the setup.help file reasonably carefully to describe what you should put 
in your AndrewSetup file.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18865064}

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Message-Id: <AacV5iS0M2UBA1Bn86@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 90 15:11:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Debbie Bloom <bloom1@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: inserting a file into a letter

How does one do this properly?  I tried to do it, but the window will
not scroll.  The file is 95 lines.  I can only see what fits in the
window.

On the subject of "confessions", I just had a problem with mail sent
(which is why I am trying to insert a file).  The mail was returned to
me since I spelled the recipients name wrong.  Is there a simple way to
send it again without saving it, clearing off the messy headings, and
inserting it into a new letter to the same person (name spelled
correctly)?

Thanks!

Debbie
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 12:57:20 MET DST
From: Haavard Eidnes <he@idt.unit.no>
To: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
Cc: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, oda@idt.unit.no
Subject: Re: Forwarded:AMS & sendmail 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 16 Jul 90 12:31:53 -0400 (EDT) 
Message-Id: <CMM.0.88.648212240.he@garm.idt.unit.no>

Thanks for your answer. I don't think I explained my current setup and my
wishes clearly enough. This is an attempt to rectify this.

What I wish to acheive is to

a) be able to send and receive multi-media mail locally.

b) continue to run our main mail system based on sendmail, accessible from
   all our machines (including the AMS Post Office server(s) that I may
   install).
   
c) connect our current sendmail-based mail system to the new AMS mail
   system so that mail can be sent from one and received by the other
   system. 

> Yes, it's possible to run AMS user agents and then send&receive
> multi-media mail.  That's how most sites use Messages.

That's what I assumed. However:

The documentation seems to assume that a site is going to completely switch
to using AMDS, AMS and associated software, and I'm not ready to make that
leap just yet.  (For one thing, I have quite a number of active local users
who use our mail system on a daily basis, and who rely on its operation.
Furthermore, they're accustomed to the mail user agents we have installed
so far, and if I'm to propose that they all switch I'm not going to be very
popular.  Additionaly, we run POP2 and POP3 servers, which also complicate
this situation.) There seems to be very little mention (as far as I've
seen) of how a local mail system based on sendmail and assorted ordinary
user agents are to coexsist with AMS/AMDS.  Yes, I did read
overhead/util/lib/setup.help, as well as the relevant files in
DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV/doc/ams, and I still have a couple of (hopefully
concrete enough) unanswered questions:

1) Is it required to also run the AMDS (delivery system) to be able to send
   and receive multi-media mail, or will (the real) sendmail be able to
   work as a transport system for AMS multi-media mail? My guess is that
   I'll have to use AMDS.

If sendmail is incapable of performing this task, I have to (or should)
somehow connect the two mail systems (AMDS and sendmail).

2) Can AMDS and sendmail coexsist (on the same machine)? 

There seems to be a sendmail replacement (what's it there for?) and a
/bin/mail replacement which annoys the local postmaster by sending a bounce
for each message that's sent/delivered via /bin/mail. Clearly, we don't
want to be using these programs.

3) Can an AMS user agent receive both AMS as well as ordinary mail
   (delivered with the real /bin/mail and dropped off in /usr/spool/mail)?

When it comes to choosing an "Installation name", I don't see what would be
the correct/convenient choice for our site. In order to get some advice
here, I need to describe our current setup.

We currently have one central mail machine that performs all mail delivery
(both local and remote), called loke.idt.unit.no. The sendmail at that host
transforms most addresses of the form user@host.idt.unit.no to
user@idt.unit.no before sending the mail onwards (we maintain a list of the
hosts that are to be treated like this).  All our other sendmail-based
hosts have a stripped-down sendmail.cf that just forwards the mail to our
central mail host, and mount /usr/spool/mail with NFS from the mail host.
Appropriate MX records are set up pointing from idt.unit.no to our mail
host and its backup.

It seems apparent that we should name our AMS / AMDS system within the
idt.unit.no domain (since that's our department's domain name), and the
installation document seems to assume that:

-  gethostname(2) will return a fully qualified domain name. It desn't (and
   won't) at our site.

-  that the hostname should be used as the name of the installation. This
   will interfere with the use of sendmail on that host.

Thus:

4) Is it possible to allocate a "pseudo" domain name (eg. ams.idt.unit.no)
   to one of our hosts to be used as the AMS installation name? How do I
   insure that mail from the outside to this address is injected into the
   AMS, ie. what program should be run to deliver the message? I can modify
   the involved sendmail.cf's to acheive this.  Or does any of the AMS/AMDS
   programs listen on the SMTP port of a machine to receive mail from the
   outside? (Again, this would severely impact the operation of our
   sendmail based mail system.)

5) Is it possible to use a workstation or server that doesn't run AFS as a
   Post Office server for AMDS? The "Hardware" section of doc/ams/AMDS.ins
   seems to suggest this is a requirement, as well as the installation
   description for the post office machines (the description there is
   fairly AFS-centric). This, however, is in contradiction with the
   description in doc/ams/AMDS.ovr

6) Do I need the modified "cron" or "su", as well as "package"? I sure hope
   not, since all I have is a normal binary-only SunOS license, and I
   couldn't find "package" offhand as a part of the X11 ATK distribution.

If some of these issues/questions/explanations are still unclear, please
indicate so, and I will try to explain further.


TIA & regards,

Havard Eidnes, Postmaster &c @idt.unit.no, Uninett employee, ...
Division of Computer Systems and Telematics, Norwegian Institute of Technology
\enddata{text822, 175587}
\begindata{text822, 181914}
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 07:24:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam Stoller <ghoti+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: inserting a file into a letter
In-Reply-To: <AacV5iS0M2UBA1Bn86@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <AacV5iS0M2UBA1Bn86@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,2385644}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Inserting a file should be as simple as choosing the "File/Insert" menu item 
(or ^X^I - the default keybinding) and entering the name of the file you want 
inserted.


There has on occasion been problems with inserting some files because of 
strange reactions between things like ctext (C-code formatting text view) and 
text822 (RFC822 conforming text object/view) which have been seen to reproduce 
behavior similar to what you describe - but I haven't seen that happen for 
quite some time -- certainly not with the latest patchlevel of sources (I 
think? I'm never 100% sure what we're running here ;-)


----


As for taking mail that got bounced back (or whatever) and sending it out 
again - there are, I believe, several alternatives - the easiest is probably 
Cut/Paste between the BodyWindow and the Send Window.  There is also "This 
Message/Forward To", "This Message/Resend To" menus in the Body Window - or 
"Other/Excerpt Body" in the Send Window.


I think there is an option somewhere that will give you the ability to use the 
message currently on display as if it were a draft message - but I don't 
remember the options you need turned on for it.


If you keep a BCC of the messages you send out - that would by far be the 
best, cleanest source for a second sending - as that copy should not contain 
all the mess you want to avoid.


Hope that helps...


--fish

\enddata{text,2385644}

\enddata{text822, 181914}
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 07:42:06 -0500 (CDT)
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
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Subject: CUI messages

\begindata{text,538841096}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
What does the following message indicate from CUI?

\typewriter{
Found 2 old hidden messages in
/afs/rchland.ibm.com/usr0/bboard/.MESSAGES/advisor/aix-andrew (0 orphaned
snapshots, 0 processing errors).


}
We see this type of mesaage frequently when cui  (to epoch) or nns  is run(or
a variant "check for old hidden messages in ...").


This may be related: every once in a while we'll see messages show up in a
folder that are from 2 weeks to 6 months old... what causes this?



Bob

\enddata{text,538841096}

\enddata{text822, 184610}
\begindata{text822, 187305}
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Message-ID: <oacktFG00VsnM4RUtA@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 09:10:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Steven Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    convex!datri@uunet.uu.net (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Converting to AMS: Top 10 Reasons
In-Reply-To: <103720@convex.convex.com>
References: <103667@convex.convex.com>, <YaYrDNi00VsnMFDp04@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<103720@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,270860208}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 6-Jul-90 Re: Converting 
to AMS: Top .. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (969)}


\quotation{Okay, here's my .AMS.flames file:

}
\quotation{(defun datri-mail-hook	(msg)

}\quotation{;  (process-mapped-mailbox

}\quotation{;   msg

}\quotation{;   "mail"

}\quotation{;   "denver"

}\quotation{;   '("from")

}\quotation{;   "mail"

}\quotation{;   (ReplyAddr msg "s")

}\quotation{;   NIL

}\quotation{;   "your mail has been rejected")

}\quotation{  (post-by-keyword

}\quotation{   msg

}\quotation{   "mail"

}\quotation{   '(

}\quotation{     (("subject")("[^:]* cpypfiles" "^doallpasswd output$" 
"^convex mapmake" "forwmail output" "Dump status.*" "^files updated by 
rdist.*" )("cron"))

}\quotation{     (("to" "cc" "received") ("datri\\\\+cron") ("cron"))

}\quotation{     (("subject")("backing up.*at.*today" "[a-zA-Z0-9]*, ... .*") 
("cron"))

}\quotation{     ))

}\quotation{)

}
\quotation{(load "flib") ; The standard flames library

}
The problem is that ELI (the Embedded Lisp Interpreter, on top of which FLAMES 
is built), for (bogus) evolutionary reasons, has no implicit progn in its 
function definitions.  You simply need to insert one yourself:


\typewriter{\smaller{(defun datri-mail-hook	(msg)

  (progn

   (process-mapped-mailbox

    msg

    "mail"

    "denver"

    '("from")

    "mail"

    (ReplyAddr msg "s")

    NIL

    "your mail has been rejected")

   (post-by-keyword

    msg

    "mail"

    '((("subject")

       ("[^:]* cpypfiles" "^doallpasswd output$"

                        "^convex mapmake" "forwmail output"

                        "Dump status.*"

                        "^files updated by rdist.*" )

       ("cron"))

      (("to" "cc" "received")

       ("datri\\\\+cron")

       ("cron"))

      (("subject")

       ("backing up.*at.*today" "[a-zA-Z0-9]*, ... .*")

       ("cron"))))))


(load "flib") ; The standard flames library}}\smaller{

\typewriter{\smaller{\smaller{
______________                  _____________________________

Bob Glickstein                | Internet: bobg@andrew.cmu.edu

Information Technology Center | Bitnet:   bobg%andrew@cmuccvma.bitnet

Carnegie Mellon University    | UUCP:     ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!bobg

Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890    |

(412) 268-6743                | Sinners can repent, but stupid is forever

}}}}\enddata{text,270860208}

\enddata{text822, 187305}
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 09:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: CUI messages
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References: <MackSSM91E60J5GF1Y@rchland.ibm.com>

\begindata{text,2089504}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 CUI messages 
Bob Oesterlin@rchland.ib (470+0)}


\quotation{What does the following message indicate from CUI?

}\typewriter{
\quotation{Found 2 old hidden messages in 
/afs/rchland.ibm.com/usr0/bboard/.MESSAGES/advisor/aix-andrew (0 orphaned 
snapshots, 0 processing errors).

}
}
\quotation{We see this type of mesaage frequently when cui  (to epoch) or nns 
 is run(or a variant "check for old hidden messages in ...").

}
\quotation{This may be related: every once in a while we'll see messages show 
up in a folder that are from 2 weeks to 6 months old... what causes this?

}
They are indeed related.  This is just AMS doing its level best to make sure 
no messages ever get lost, no matter what the file system happens to do.


You remember last week I explained all the things AMS does when it reads in 
new incoming mail?  Well, this is related to one of them.  Consider that for 
each new message, two files must be written:


1.  The body file itself.


2.  The index file for the folder (.MS_MsgDir).


Now, whichever order you choose to write them in, you have the disturbing 
possibility that the file system will flake out on you in between the two 
steps.  Well, there are lots of possible algorithms for dealing with this.  We 
wanted to achieve two goals:


1.  No messages should ever be lost.


2.  The body file should be written first, because otherwise you'd have 
situations where the caption showed up but the body was unavailable.


Now, the way we do this is by surrounding the two write operations with the 
creation and deletion of a mark in the file system that says "there's 
something being added to this folder."  This is the .AMS_DIRMOD file -- it is 
created before the append operation, and deleted afterwards.  If the file 
system goes down in the middle, this file stays around, and the next time the 
messageserver opens the directory for writing, it notices and scavenges for 
"old hidden messages".  At that point, the messages, which otherwise would 
have remained invisible, are indexed in the .MS_MsgDir file and become 
visible.  (You can also force this check to happen by hand with the CUI 
"scavenge" command.)


Actually, it's even more complicated than this.  Similar transient error 
problems can afflict the folder purge operation, and messages can be similarly 
"orphaned" during that process.  Thus, sometimes the "scavenge" operation 
finds not messages that never showed up, but messages that showed up a long 
time ago and were incompletely purged.


In short, the messages are harmless and can be ignored.  In fact, we put them 
there to monitor how well the mechanism was working when it was first 
installed; it isn't necessarily clear that it should even bother printing the 
messages any more...  -- Nathaniel

\enddata{text,2089504}

\enddata{text822, 191099}
\begindata{text822, 195520}
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Message-ID: <kaclYUC00as90CH15R@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam Stoller <ghoti+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: CUI messages
In-Reply-To: <MackSSM91E60J5GF1Y@rchland.ibm.com>
References: <MackSSM91E60J5GF1Y@rchland.ibm.com>

\begindata{text,2634032}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 CUI messages 
Bob Oesterlin@rchland.ib (470+0)}

[..]

\typewriter{\quotation{Found 2 old hidden messages in 
/afs/rchla}}\quotation{nd.ibm.com/usr0/bboard/.MESSAGES/advisor/aix-andrew (0 
orphaned snapshots, 0 processing errors).

}[..]

\quotation{This may be related: every once in a while we'll see messages show 
up in a folder that are from 2 weeks to 6 months old... what causes this?

}
Yes - they are related -- (I hope I get this correct, it's been a while...) 
 it's basically a built-in scavenger.


At times, it is possible for a message to miss getting indexed in the 
.MS_MsgDir file \smaller{(or perhaps lose it's index?)} -- I believe this 
happens mostly in combination with some sort of file server problem 
\smaller{(certainly with AFS, probably with other similar filesystems - maybe 
 even plain UNIX)}.  It isn't (wasn't) always a case of a problem with 
incomming mail - in fact, for a while it was most common with respect to 
mail/posts that had been deleted, and had never been fully purged from the 
directory.


Every so often (\smaller{? I don't remember the details here - sorry)} when 
the messageserver is adding a new message to the folder/index - it will notice 
that something might be amiss, and attempt to do a (hopefully quick) scavenge 
in the directory to find any messages which are missing from the index.


If it finds any, it prints out a warning (upper excerpt above), and appends 
them to the folder.  Note, that is -> append <- -- hence at times you will see 
posts that could a few minutes to several years old appear as if they had just 
arrived (lower excerpt above).



If it's happening a lot - someone (?) will probably have to try and track down 
the cause - if it happens occasionally with no real regularity - I wouldn't 
worry about it too much (unless you want to ;-) 


--fish

(PS: be sure to look for followups from Craig and NSB - which will catch the 
many mistakes I've probably made in the above *sigh*)

\enddata{text,2634032}

\enddata{text822, 195520}
\begindata{text822, 198837}
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Date: 17 Jul 90 15:49:03 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!nuug!sigyn.idt.unit.no!sigyn.idt.unit.no!roarbre@bloom-beacon.mit.edu  (Roar Brevik)
Organization: Div. of CS & T, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Subject: Novice questions
Message-Id: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

1. In the helpfile on "initfiles" (initfls.help) there is a reference to 
   "listprocs" ('...se help on listprocs for information on how to find
out what 
   procedures are available.'). The file "listprocs.help" is not present in our
   source (patch005) and there is none in help.aliases about it. Where
can I get
   info on the procs that are available? (I want to change keybindings
for ez but
   have no list of the procedures available in ez. There is help on
"ezprocs" but
   this lists only a single procedure [ezapp-set-buffer-checkpoint-latency].) 

2. What is the easiest way to cope with *very* large documents using ez?
   (eg. The document compiler LaTeX uses "include" and "input".)


Roar
\enddata{text822, 198837}
\begindata{text822, 200881}
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Message-ID: <0acodiD0BwwOM3P4p1@transarc.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 13:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Haavard Eidnes <he@idt.unit.no>
Subject: Re: Forwarded:AMS & sendmail
CC: oda@idt.unit.no
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.88.648212240.he@garm.idt.unit.no>
References: <CMM.0.88.648212240.he@garm.idt.unit.no>

\begindata{text,18893832}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
AMDS is a local delivery agent: it essentially replaces /bin/mail for purposes 
of putting a piece of mail into a local recipient's in-box.  When coupled with 
AFS, it does have one property of a long-haul mail system: it can deliver mail 
to users at a remote AFS site if that remote AFS site has indicated its 
willingness to cooperate with such attempts (by indicating that it also runs 
AMDS).


You don't need AMDS to send and receive multi-media mail.  The multi-media 
nature of AMS/ATK mail is represented just fine within the confines of RFC822 
(of which BSD Sendmail is (part of) one implementation).  This message is 
going out in multi-media form to several recipients of the info-andrew list, 
most of whom are not receiving it via AMDS.


You can later switch to using AMDS, but you don't have to, and there's not 
much rationale in doing this unless AMDS is helping you deal with a 
distributed file system of some sort.


AMDS and sendmail generally don't coexist on the same machine, though AMDS 
uses some external mechanism (sendmail, by default) for its long-haul 
transport/SMTP needs that it can't itself meet.


The /bin/mail and /usr/lib/sendmail replacements are essentially to be 
installed only when you have AMDS running on your site, you don't run sendmail 
or /bin/mail on most machines, and you want to trap all the old uses of these 
programs that are buried in lots of applications that think they know how to 
create and send mail.


AMS user agents handle both ordinary and multi-media mail just fine. 
 Multi-media mail is tagged as such via the Content-type: header (RFC 1049). 
 In non-AMDS mode, AMS will send such messages via a configurable path name to 
an executable (default ``/usr/lib/sendmail'') and will retrieve messages from 
a file with another configurable name (default ``/usr/spool/mail'' or 
``/usr/mail'').


I don't think you'll have to worry a lot about choosing an installation name, 
though from your description you'd be happy with ``idt.unit.no'' (since you 
would expect any central service to handle mail to ``anyname@idt.unit.no'').


You can set the ThisDomainSuffix variable in AndrewSetup to something like 
``idt.unit.no'' if you want From: lines to look like foo@bar.idt.unit.no (user 
foo on local machine bar).


I think most of your questions have the same answer: you don't really want to 
be running AMDS in your environment.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18893832}

\enddata{text822, 200881}
\begindata{text822, 204677}
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 14:32:00 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Novice questions
In-Reply-To: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>
References: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>

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1) [...initfiles...listprocs...]


Check out help on 'deskey' -- it replaced listprocs a while ago (presumably 
the initfls.help will be fixed in the next (or next + 1?) patch)



2 [very large documents]


Sorry - I can't help with that one - but it might help if you clarified 
whether you were talking about one very large file (i.e. a 2meg document) or 
being able to modularize your documents but still be able to get them to print 
out as one document (i.e. consecutive page numberings, full index, toc, etc.) 
- Again, I'm not sure what answers there are, but the clearer the question, 
the better directed the answer can be......


--fish

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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 15:58:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nicholas John Williams <njw@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Novice questions
In-Reply-To: <0acpaUO00as90CTUQJ@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>,
	<0acpaUO00as90CTUQJ@andrew.cmu.edu>

> 2 [very large documents]

    If Roar meant coping with broken up, modularized documents, then
there was a paper given on this subject at the UKUUG (UK Unix Users
Group) 1989 Winter Technical meeting in Cardiff.

    I don't have those proceedings with me at the moment, so I can't
give you any more info, but perhaps someone in the UK or with a copy
would be able to help out...

    From what I remember, the speaker and his gang of students had
implemented just such a system as one you want (many modularized files),
which coped with multiple authors and cross referencing and other
goodies.  But then, my memory isn't good at the best of times, so I
could be wrong :-)

Nick Williams.
njw@athena.mit.edu,
njw@doc.ic.ac.uk, 
njw@cc.ic.ac.uk
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Message-Id: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 21:15:06 +0100 (BST)
From: Lennart Lovstrand <lovstrand.EuroPARC@Xerox.COM>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Dear Saint Andrew...

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\heading{\italic{Dear Saint Andrew:

}}
While there are many things I like about Andrew as a user, there are also 
(maybe as many, I dare say) things I find annoying and frustrating when 
compared to other word processing or mail applications.  This is sad, because 
it acts as a obstacle in promoting Andrew as \italic{the} general office 
multimedia document system, one that otherwise would have a great potential in 
serving technical staff and administrators alike and bringing them together 
under the same roof.


The features of Andrew that I like the most are probably the modular 
architecture of the toolkit applications, allowing almost anything to be 
embedded within something else, and the fact that multimedia documents are 
encoded in such a way they can be transparently shared between Andrew users 
via email.  It is an incredibly powerful combination that not only looks & 
feels nice to use, but also opens exciting new doors to creating applications 
by object manipulation and the ability to distribute these with very little 
overhead.


[For comparisons, the only other system that I know of that provides anything 
like this is Xerox Lisp with TEdit and Lafite, but that is reserved for the 
"privileged few" who have a Lisp machine on their desk -- and god how slow it 
is!]


Now over to the not-so-good part.  Over the last six months or so, I've been 
trying to collect notes on the things I'm not so happy with Andrew about. 
 I've included most of these below as suggestions for improvements.  Please 
see them as constructive criticism; any comments are welcome (especially, "but 
you can already do that!").


--Lennart <Lovstrand.EuroPARC@Xerox.COM>

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\heading{EZ and TextView (&c)

}
I wish text selections would be "pending delete" [ie, automatically deleted 
when a new character is typed] in much the style of the Macintosh, Sun, and 
many Xerox environments.


I wish I had M-X...


I wish I wouldn't have to type M-@ to select a region [for further 
kill-region, etc.] -- it's really confusing when moving between ez and emacs.


I \italic{really, really wish} there was an \smaller{UNDO} in ez &c.


I wish backup and checkpointing could be compatible with gnu emacs, ie. #foo# 
for checkpoint and foo~ or foo~n~ for old versions.


I wish M-Del would put the deleted text in the kill-ring, as emacs does.


I wish there was a M-T (transpose-words).


I wish operations on text attributes (fonts, etc) would be available "on the 
same level" as opposed to explicitly embedded within each other.  For example, 
one should be able to "unitalicize" \typewriter{\smaller{foo}} in 
\typewriter{\smaller{\\italic\{foo \\bold\{bar\}\}}}, giving 
\typewriter{\smaller{foo\\italic\{\\bold\{ bar\}\}}}.


I wish the caret wouldn't always take the font style of the previous character 
-- it makes it especially frustrating to try and insert a new word first on a 
line and discover that it took the font props of the previous line.  [MS Word, 
MacWrite, etc. does this right]


I wish the lookz menu would allow me to change the default style as well as 
the others (does it?)


I wish I would be able to explicitly state that a certain piece of text should 
be 12 point Optima (or whatever) without having to create a random name for it 
and declare it using lookz.


I wish there were indications in the margin about what kind of style [etc] the 
current para was.


I wish there was support for setting \bold{tab stops}!  [What no tabs??!  You 
must be joking!]


I wish there was [wysiwyg] support for 16 or 8 bit fonts and accented 
characters in particular.


I wish printing a document wouldn't be dependent on having troff -- most of 
the formatting is already done by Andrew, so why not just produce PostScript 
(or something DVI-like) right away?


In general, I wish that ez would be on level with "real" word processors, such 
as MS Word, Frame, Xerox Viewpoint, etc. so that it could be a serious 
competitor.


\heading{Graphics}


I wish middle button would do thumbing in the scroll bar [instead of bringing 
up the menu] -- grabbing the scroll bar with the left or right button is 
tedious and somewhat difficult when the text is large and the scroll bar very 
small.


I wish there would be better graphical [paint, draw type] editors.


I wish there was full color support, not just fg/bg colors.


\heading{Messages & AMS}


I wish Messages wouldn't distinguish between operations on the selected 
message and operations on all marked messages.  Clearly, one is just a special 
case of the other (and by jove it's confusing to find which operations are 
supported where).


I wish "Insert Header" would work even when the caret is in the body window 


Printing hidden headers as footnotes is a nifty idea, but I wish it could be 
turned off -- and when on, that they wouldn't be (left-and-right) justified!


I wish Messages would show the messages in chronological order by the Date: 
field -- as opposed to in the order they arrive, since messages frequently get 
arbitrarily delayed during the transport and thus arrive in a jumbled order. 
 (Or is this already supposed to happen?  But I have messages that 


I wish Messages would give the choice of sorting order -- by date sent, date 
received, author, recipient(s), subject, etc.


I wish Messages et al would allow me to directly control the appearance of the 
captions -- what is shown as well as how it is presented.  (Seeing that a 
message is from "Mail D. Subsystem" instead of "Mailer-Daemon" is kind of 
amusing, but there are worse cases.)


I wish Messages would allow me to have more than one "Message Draft" window 
open -- I often want to keep several of these around until I'm ready to send 
them off.


I wish Messages et al would allow more than just RFC822 addresses -- even 
though my mail backend (sendmail) allows me to send both XNS and UUCP 
formatted addresses, Messages insists on validating them as "user@domain". 
 [Is there a way to turn this off?]


I wish Messages would support an easy way of following a branch of followups.


I wish AMS would properly retain the envelope sender as found in the From_ 
line when retrieved from the user's mbox in /usr/spool/mail.  As it is now, at 
least the "X-Andrew-Authenticated-As" header is prepended to the message, 
pushing the "From " line down into the body of the headers (where it at least 
should be changed to a Return-Path: to belong).


I wish AMS wouldn't bluntly remove any user-supplied From: headers -- they're 
perfectly legal and perform the useful task of indicating a that the indicated 
sender is different from the (claimed) person sitting in front of the 
keyboard.


I wish AMS wouldn't barf on a subject-less message (ugh!)


I wish the mail applications would have been written to use a "real" mail 
service protocol, talking to a "real" mail server, instead of trying to rely 
on a global file system.


\heading{General}


I wish tm wouldn't scroll 2/3 of the window each time the caret goes below the 
bottom of the screen.  [Argh!]


I wish there would be a (one) consistent extension language, not ELI here and 
NESS there etc.


I wish there wasn't so many flags littering the system and making it virtually 
incomprehensible without investing 


I wish the code wouldn't contain quite so many magic constants and obscure 
defensive coding.

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Message-ID: <4acrrNG00Vt187nVV0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1990 17:06:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    eru!luth!sunic!nuug!sigyn.idt.unit.no!sigyn.idt.unit.no!roarbre@bloom-beacon.mit.edu
    (Roar Brevik)
Subject: Re: Novice questions
In-Reply-To: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>
References: <1990Jul17.154903.22777@idt.unit.no>

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I just added a flag to datacat to provide a facility that I wrote for the 
Athena folks a while back (datacat is the ATK datastream version of cat). 


When given the -i flag, datacat will now search through the files it is passed 
for lines of the form


@include(filename)


Datacat -i will interpret all of the instances of this and include the named 
files in its output.


The -I flag does the same as the -i flag, except that it will also look for 
@include lines in the included files themselves.


This may be of use to you in composing large documents out of small pieces. 
 If Susan hasn't cut the patch 6 tape yet, I will try and get this change 
included.


	Tom N.

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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>

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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (7062+1)}


\quotation{Printing hidden headers as footnotes is a nifty idea, but I wish it 
could be turned off -- and when on, that they wouldn't be (left-and-right) 
justified!

}
Try putting:

	\bold{*.PrintMinorHeaders: no}

in \typewriter{~/preferences}


\quotation{I wish Messages would show the messages in chronological order by 
the Date: field -- as opposed to in the order they arrive, since messages 
frequently get arbitrarily delayed during the transport and thus arrive in a 
jumbled order.  (Or is this already supposed to happen?  But I have messages 
that 

}
\quotation{I wish Messages would give the choice of sorting order -- by date 
sent, date received, author, recipient(s), subject, etc.

}

I think this would be a lot easier if the captions list were treated as a 
simple textview which could have it's contents filtered,the filter-commands 
already exist -- it's possible the captions are already a simple textview - 
but as it is currently presented you cannot (a) make it "writable", (b) select 
a region, without triggering something else, and (c) pipe it through a filter 
command.


Perhaps this is an relatively easy fix? I don't know.



\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow me to directly control the 
appearance of the captions -- what is shown as well as how it is presented. 
 (Seeing that a message is from "Mail D. Subsystem" instead of "Mailer-Daemon" 
is kind of amusing, but there are worse cases.)

}

I believe FLAMES will allow you to do this for your own personal mail folders 
- Trying to do it for public bboards would require [drastic?] changes in the 
way the entire messages database works \smaller{(which may or may not be worth 
it in the long run, but who intends to put in the short term time of (a) 
trying to make it work, and (b) trying to make it robustly backward 
compatible???)}


\quotation{I wish Messages would allow me to have more than one "Message 
Draft" window open -- I often want to keep several of these around until I'm 
ready to send them off.

}
Try typing ^X2 (Ctrl-X2) in the Composition window - it may not be perfect, 
but it does work\smaller{ (unfortunately Messages won't look for an 
"available" composition window when you try to do a reply - so you have to 
manually address and fill in the other information...maybe there's an easy fix 
for this?)}



--fish

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Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>

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I \italic{really} love these wish lists.   They're always very illuminating 
for all concerned.  Though I'm no longer part of the Andrew project, I can't 
resist commenting about some of them -- especially since a lot of them ARE 
things you can already do:


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@xerox. (7062+1)}


\quotation{I wish text selections would be "pending delete" [ie, automatically 
deleted when a new character is typed] in much the style of the Macintosh, 
Sun, and many Xerox environments.

}
Personally, I'd hate this, but it would be nice to have it as an option.


\quotation{I wish I had M-X...

}
I believe that you do, sort of, using Ness, although the set of things you can 
do with it is VERY different from what you get in Emacs.


More likely, though, this complaint is really a lot like many of your other 
complaints, which are "I wish it was more like Gnu Emacs."  When you think 
about it though, the only reason you make these complaints is that it's 
amazingly close to begin with.  Complete compatibility between two such 
different systems is fundamentally very unlikely.  I agree, however, that 
there are a few places where they could be more consistent, but here's a 
little-known fact:  EZ has been around longer than Gnu Emacs!


\quotation{I \italic{really, really wish} there was an \smaller{UNDO} in ez 
&c.

}
Ditto.  About a year and a half ago, we came up with a scheme for a "next 
generation" toolkit that could do an arbitrary undo within the distributed 
control structure of ATK-like architectures.  (Think about doing a sequence of 
operations, each with a different inset, and then expecting successive "undo" 
operations to work right.)  This exercise convinced me of two things:  it 
would be possible, and it would be a LOT of work -- undo in an environment 
with distributed control is a lot harder than it is for Emacs.  Our scheme 
involved having each proctable entry provide a "how to undo me" procedure 
which would be pushed onto an "undo stack" (along with some 
invocation-specific data) when the proctable entry was called!


\quotation{I wish the caret wouldn't always take the font style of the 
previous character -- it makes it especially frustrating to try and insert a 
new word first on a line and discover that it took the font props of the 
previous line.  [MS Word, MacWrite, etc. does this right]

}
Earlier versions of Andrew toolkits did this right.  This was changed when the 
current ATK was written, and I've argued that it was a mistake ever since.  It 
would be trivial to change it, or at least make it a preference option.


\quotation{I wish there were indications in the margin about what kind of 
style [etc] the current para was.

}
Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with styles and try 
typing it.


\quotation{I wish there was support for setting \bold{tab stops}!  [What no 
tabs??!  You must be joking!]

}
No version of any Andrew toolkit has ever supported tabs properly.  It's a 
tradition -- that's what the letters really stand for:  All Tabs Killed.


\quotation{I wish there was [wysiwyg] support for 16 or 8 bit fonts and 
accented characters in particular.

}
I've heard rumors that this was coming.


\quotation{I wish printing a document wouldn't be dependent on having troff -- 
most of the formatting is already done by Andrew, so why not just produce 
PostScript (or something DVI-like) right away?

}
I share your wish, but it's a lot harder than you imply.  This would be a 
major amount of work.


\quotation{In general, I wish that ez would be on level with "real" word 
processors, such as MS Word, Frame, Xerox Viewpoint, etc. so that it could be 
a serious competitor.

}
Me too, but you should keep in mind that nobody ever funded it as such, and 
nobody does today.  In particular, ez was never really funded or supported at 
a level that would allow this to happen -- it was funded more as a research 
project to demonstrate the utility of the toolkit's approach to documents.  As 
such, I would contend that it succeeded wildly -- so wildly that it was opened 
up to criticisms like this one.  A better question now would be, how could we 
get someone to pay for either extending ez to this level, or for building a 
new word processor that has the advanced features permitted by the ATK 
architecture \italic{and} the polish of the "real" word processers.


\quotation{I wish middle button would do thumbing in the scroll bar [instead 
of bringing up the menu] -- grabbing the scroll bar with the left or right 
button is tedious and somewhat difficult when the text is large and the scroll 
bar very small.

}
Neat idea, but I think the "middle button == mouse" equation is hard-wired, 
both in the code and in the minds of the people who wrote it...  :-)


\quotation{I wish there would be better graphical [paint, draw type] editors.

}
Ditto, but see my answer about "word processing" above.  Nobody ever wanted to 
pay for this, either.


\quotation{I wish there was full color support, not just fg/bg colors.

}
Isn't this coming in patch 6?


\quotation{I wish Messages wouldn't distinguish between operations on the 
selected message and operations on all marked messages.  Clearly, one is just 
a special case of the other (and by jove it's confusing to find which 
operations are supported where).

}
Well, I believed that for a long time, and tried to figure out a way to make 
it work.  The problem is, one really\italic{ isn't} a special case of the 
other, or at least so I finally concluded.  What I would now like to see, 
instead, would be a notion of "virtual folders" where you could select some 
messages and treat them as if they were a whole folder.  (I believe Rob 
Hagens, at U of Wisconsin, is now building a mailer that includes this 
concept.)


\quotation{I wish "Insert Header" would work even when the caret is in the 
body window 

}
Doesn't it?  Sounds like a trivial bug to fix...


\quotation{Printing hidden headers as footnotes is a nifty idea, but I wish it 
could be turned off -- and when on, that they wouldn't be (left-and-right) 
justified!

}
I don't know about the justification, but it can be turned off -- there are 
preference options for this.  I think they're even documented.  


\bold{*.usefootnote:no }-- will cause the headers to all show up at the top of 
the page.


\bold{*.printminorheaders: no }-- will cause the headers that would otherwise 
be in footnotes to simply be omitted.


\quotation{I wish Messages would show the messages in chronological order by 
the Date: field -- as opposed to in the order they arrive, since messages 
frequently get arbitrarily delayed during the transport and thus arrive in a 
jumbled order.  (Or is this already supposed to happen?  But I have messages 
that 

}
\quotation{I wish Messages would give the choice of sorting order -- by date 
sent, date received, author, recipient(s), subject, etc.

}
Yeah, these would be very nice.  Unfortunately, the idea of having the 
database ordered by time-received is deeply wired into the system -- the way 
user profiling information is kept, and so on.  If I were doing it over again, 
I would probably do it differently, but fixing it would be a massive job.


\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow me to directly control the 
appearance of the captions -- what is shown as well as how it is presented. 
 (Seeing that a message is from "Mail D. Subsystem" instead of "Mailer-Daemon" 
is kind of amusing, but there are worse cases.)

}
The default algorithm is highly-tuned with a lot of heuristics, which I 
sometimes think were specifically designed (by me) to make people laugh. 
   The best ever was when Craig Everhart got mail from  something like 
"Postmaster@ELEPHANT-BUTTE.SCRC.ARPA" (yes, that was a long time ago) and -- 
you guessed it -- the caption said "Postmaster@ELEPHANT-BUTT".  He thought 
that one of the other developers was playing a prank on him!


Actually, I still think the heuristics produce good answers an amazing portion 
of the time, given the h*rs*sh*t that often shows up in From: headers. 
 However, you can do exactly what you ask for from a FLAMES program -- using 
the FLAMES "setcaption" primitive you can redesign the captioning algorithm 
(in LISP).


\quotation{I wish Messages would allow me to have more than one "Message 
Draft" window open -- I often want to keep several of these around until I'm 
ready to send them off.

}
No problem.  Don't you know about the ^X2 keystroke, which can be used in any 
of Messages' windows?  Try typing ^X2 in the sending window.  (Aren't these 
key bindings intuitively obvious?  I don't see the problem..  :->  )


\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow more than just RFC822 addresses 
-- even though my mail backend (sendmail) allows me to send both XNS and UUCP 
formatted addresses, Messages insists on validating them as "user@domain". 
 [Is there a way to turn this off?]

}
There is, in principle, at least for UUCP, but I just checked it and it seems 
to be broken.  I'll look into it.  Meanwhile, you can use a trick like this 
one.  I assume your site has some full domain, which is specified to Andrew as 
ThisDomain, and that there are shorthand versions of it that Andrew doesn't 
know about.  You can use this to trick the system into thinking mail is 
external.  If your site is "foo.bar.baz" and "foo" is a valid nickname that 
Andrew hasn't been told about, then even if "x!y" doesn't work, "x!y@foo" 
should work fine.


\quotation{I wish Messages would support an easy way of following a branch of 
followups.

}
Try "Mark Related Messages" on the "Search/Spell" menu card.


\quotation{I wish AMS would properly retain the envelope sender as found in 
the From_ line when retrieved from the user's mbox in /usr/spool/mail.  As it 
is now, at least the "X-Andrew-Authenticated-As" header is prepended to the 
message, pushing the "From " line down into the body of the headers (where it 
at least should be changed to a Return-Path: to belong).

}
I've suggested a similar idea in private mail to people at the ITC; I don't 
know if it's coming out as a patch or not, but it's probably a good idea.


\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't bluntly remove any user-supplied From: headers 
-- they're perfectly legal and perform the useful task of indicating a that 
the indicated sender is different from the (claimed) person sitting in front 
of the keyboard.

}
I believe this is NOT perfectly legal -- what you want here is a "Sender" 
header, which I *think* it will let you add.  "Reply-to" is also perfectly 
legitimate.


\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't barf on a subject-less message (ugh!)

}
Yeah, this was a value judgement.  Personally, I hate getting mail without a 
subject.   Think of this as my personal plea for better network etiquette...


\quotation{I wish the mail applications would have been written to use a 
"real" mail service protocol, talking to a "real" mail server, instead of 
trying to rely on a global file system.

}
Well, you should bear in mind that we sold CMU/IBM on a mail system project in 
the first place in large part as a demonstration service to be built on top of 
AFS.  We never originally intended that it would be taken apart and run with 
sendmail!


\quotation{I wish there would be a (one) consistent extension language, not 
ELI here and NESS there etc.

}
Not to mention preferences, init files, and so on...


\quotation{I wish there wasn't so many flags littering the system and making 
it virtually incomprehensible without investing 

}
What, you mean there are better things to do with your time than learn about 
obscure options to Andrew?


\quotation{I wish the code wouldn't contain quite so many magic constants and 
obscure defensive coding.

}
Magic constants are bad.  Defensive coding is good, however, so I find part of 
this complaint quite cryptic.  Personally, the more I look at source code for 
standard UNIX utilities, the more astounded I am that anything ever works at 
all.  


Gee, that was fun.  -- Nathaniel

\enddata{text,2089504}

\enddata{text822, 225556}
\begindata{text822, 239295}
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 10:36:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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\begindata{text,19076212}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Adam and Nathaniel have filled in lots of good answers (including both 
``here's how to do that, I think'' and ``here's a partial answer to your 
wish'').


\quotation{\bold{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (7062+1)}

}
\quotation{I wish I wouldn't have to type M-@ to select a region [for further 
kill-region, etc.] -- it's really confusing when moving between ez and emacs.

}Simple--don't use emacs.  (:-))


\quotation{I wish backup and checkpointing could be compatible with gnu emacs, 
ie. #foo# for checkpoint and foo~ or foo~n~ for old versions.

}If ATK and Emacs could agree on semantic points....


\quotation{I wish there was support for setting \bold{tab stops}!  [What no 
tabs??!  You must be joking!]

}Right.  But look at what named tabs did to Bravo, in the old days: made it 
almost slow enough to be unusable.


\quotation{Printing hidden headers as footnotes is a nifty idea, but I wish it 
could be turned off -- and when on, that they wouldn't be (left-and-right) 
justified!

}The left/right-justified stuff sounds like a bug.  Nathaniel and Adam already 
told you how to control this some, so maybe it will be more to your liking.


\quotation{I wish Messages would show the messages in chronological order by 
the Date: field -- as opposed to in the order they arrive, since messages 
frequently get arbitrarily delayed during the transport and thus arrive in a 
jumbled order.  (Or is this already supposed to happen?  But I have messages 
that 

}Sigh.  You can re-sort your own folders by evaluated-Date: header value.  AMS 
doesn't at present maintain more than a high-water-mark within a folder saying 
what messages you've seen, so messages are, by default, sorted by arrival time 
since that's the only way AMS can show you the ones you haven't seen yet. 
 (Yes, it could micro-optimize the case where it's appending several messages 
at once, and sort those, but that's small payoff since it couldn't sort new 
messages to a spot before the last old message.)  Substantial rewriting would 
have to take place to get this to work right.  (The date parser doesn't handle 
time zones properly, either, so you'd get somewhat anomalous results.)


\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow me to directly control the 
appearance of the captions -- what is shown as well as how it is presented. 
 (Seeing that a message is from "Mail D. Subsystem" instead of "Mailer-Daemon" 
is kind of amusing, but there are worse cases.)

}As we built AMS (for use on Vice/AFS), we didn't want people to have to 
retrieve a message (that whole file) in order to see a one-line caption 
describing it.  Our choice of what information to put in the caption line, 
which is simply one field in the ``snapshot'' in the .MS_MsgDir index file, 
was therefore global to all readers of a folder.  Not ideal, it's true.


\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow more than just RFC822 addresses 
-- even though my mail backend (sendmail) allows me to send both XNS and UUCP 
formatted addresses, Messages insists on validating them as "user@domain". 
 [Is there a way to turn this off?]

}UUCP addresses should work a little bit, if you have the appropriate 
AndrewSetup option on.  You might have asked for x.400/x.500 addresses as 
well.  Good idea.


\quotation{I wish AMS would properly retain the envelope sender as found in 
the From_ line when retrieved from the user's mbox in /usr/spool/mail.  As it 
is now, at least the "X-Andrew-Authenticated-As" header is prepended to the 
message, pushing the "From " line down into the body of the headers (where it 
at least should be changed to a Return-Path: to belong).

}Yes, this should be supported.  If AMS thinks it's in an RFC822 world, it 
should convert the UUCP-ish envelope-from information to what it can 
understand.


\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't bluntly remove any user-supplied From: headers 
-- they're perfectly legal and perform the useful task of indicating a that 
the indicated sender is different from the (claimed) person sitting in front 
of the keyboard.

}They're legal only if they work for a remote user.  (At a college campus, 
it's been important for AMS to try to keep From: headers reasonably honest.) 
 AMS might well have to add a Sender: header if the From: header wouldn't 
work, or maybe add a Reply-to: header as well.


\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't barf on a subject-less message (ugh!)

}Matter of taste.  Like Nathaniel, I don't enjoy reading messages without 
subject lines; to me it marks a thoughtless message author.


\quotation{I wish the mail applications would have been written to use a 
"real" mail service protocol, talking to a "real" mail server, instead of 
trying to rely on a global file system.

}It relies not on a global file system but on a local-area file system; the 
global file system extensions came later, and are not as integral.  Yeah, 
wouldn't it be nice if it worked with POP and all the rest.


\quotation{I wish the code wouldn't contain quite so many magic constants and 
obscure defensive coding.

}I read this as a complaint more about the obscurity of the defensive coding 
than the defensive coding itself.  Too bad that when we were cornered into 
making a defensive fix that we didn't comment the situation against which we 
were defending.


Thanks for the list!  It's good to go through it.


		Craig

\enddata{text,19076212}

\enddata{text822, 239295}
\begindata{text822, 246082}
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,2556724}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (11539+0)}


\quotation{\quotation{I wish the caret wouldn't always take the font style of 
the previous character -- it makes it especially frustrating to try and insert 
a new word first on a line and discover that it took the font props of the 
previous line.  [MS Word, MacWrite, etc. does this right]

}}
\quotation{Earlier versions of Andrew toolkits did this right.  This was 
changed when the current ATK was written, and I've argued that it was a 
mistake ever since.  It would be trivial to change it, or at least make it a 
preference option.

}

Actually, I think there might already be one -- try adding the preference:


	StylesIncludeEnd: no


\quotation{Neat idea, but I think the "middle button == mouse" equation is 
hard-wired, both in the code and in the minds of the people who wrote it... 
 :-)

}

(Presumably that should be "middle button == \underline{menus}" )


--fish\
\enddata{text,2556724}

\enddata{text822, 246082}
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 11:48:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeffrey J. Carpenter" <jjc@unix.cis.pitt.edu>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
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\begindata{text,1403616}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from comp.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (11539+0)}



\quotation{Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with 
styles and try typing it.

}
\quotation{No problem.  Don't you know about the ^X2 keystroke, which can be 
used in any of Messages' windows?  Try typing ^X2 in the sending window. 
 (Aren't these key bindings intuitively obvious?  I don't see the problem.. 
 :->  )

}
Where are these things like ESC-s and ^X2 documented?  I can't seem to find 
them anywhere...



	jeff





\bold{\underline{\bigger{\bigger{Jeff Carpenter}}}}


\smaller{\flushleft{University of Pittsburgh, Computing and Information 
Services

jjc+@unix.cis.pitt.edu,   +1 412 624 6424,    FAX +1 412 624 6436}}

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o0120g24n42i |
o0220g24n42i |
o0220g24n42i |
o01c0g18n3ci |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
h8040zg |
h8040zg |
g03Ge0zg |
g07Gf8zg |
g3fGfczg |
g7fc0G80z |
gfc618fc0z |
01fc7f8fe0hc0	070301801c0603	80380e060380j |
01fc7f8fe0g01	c0!0703c03f0f	03807e0e0f0380	j |
02040c0810g03	c0!0f06!601987	80c01e198780j |
03f81e07f0hc0	0b0306606c1985	80d816198580j |
01f9f3e7e00180	c01303g607e01	8980fc26018980	j |
g036db0g0180c0	3303gc0630319	80c666031980j |
g075eb8g07e0c0	3f83018063061f	c0c67f061fc0j |
g0f5fbcg07e0c0	3f8303g630c1f	c0c67f0c1fc0j |
g1f6dbeg0180c0	!0307e03e1f81	807c061f8180j |
g3fb37fg0180c0	!0307e01c1f81	8038061f8180j |
g3fdeGzg |
g3fe1Gzg |
g3fHzg |
g3fHzg |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
g03Gf8zg |
g04g04zg |
g04Ge4zg |
g05g14g0198h7c	h18h60hd980g0c	i |
g05g14j01c7n19	80g0ci |
g05g14g0198e0	01bb199f1b301c	6781f0dfe0707c	cch |
g05g14g0199b0	c36d999d99e036	6cc1d8d980d8dc	cch |
g05g14g019bgc3	cd"99e0606c01	8cd9818d8ccch |
g05g14g019b03	f3cd!9998c060	67818cd981fd8c	cch |
g05g14g019bgc3	dd"99e0!60c18c	d9!818ccch |
g04Ge4g0199b0	c3771b!99e036	6cc1d8d980d8!dc	h |
g04g04g0198e0	01800f999b331c	678df0ceec70!7c	h |
g04g04g0198g01	c6l0180m |
g0403e4g0198h	7cl0180m |
g04g04g0330o01	80m |
g04g04zg |
g04g04zg |
g03Gf8zg |
g02g08zg |
g02g08zg |
g03Gf8zg |
zk |
zk |
zk |
zk |
\enddata{raster, 11035136}
\view{rasterview,11035136,10,0,0}

\enddata{text,1403616}

\enddata{text822, 248440}
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 10:59:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re:  Dear Saint Andrew

\begindata{text,2860488}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Adam Stoller@andrew.cmu. (2310+0)}


\quotation{I believe FLAMES will allow you to do this for your own personal 
mail folders - Trying to do it for public bboards would require [drastic?] 
changes in the way the entire messages database works \smaller{(which may or 
may not be worth it in the long run, but who intends to put in the short term 
time of (a) trying to make it work, and (b) trying to make it robustly 
backward compatible???)}

}
Adam is right on a per-person basis.  However, it is easy to modify the bboard 
daemon at any particular site to construct the captions however you like -- 
the key is that the captions look the same for everybody, that's all.

\enddata{text,2860488}

\enddata{text822, 254379}
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 13:19:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <Uad8GyM_V000QRKPcU@unix.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<Uad8GyM_V000QRKPcU@unix.cis.pitt.edu>

^X2 is documented in the "messages-keys" help.  ESC-s is documented in
the "ez-keys" help.  Useful help files, both of them.
\enddata{text822, 256618}
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 15:34:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu,
        Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>
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	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,2407320}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew... 
Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (11539+0)}


\quotation{I \italic{really} love these wish lists.

}
Me too.


\quotation{\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 
Dear Saint Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@xerox. (7062+1)}

}
\quotation{\quotation{I wish I had M-X...

}}
\quotation{I believe that you do, sort of, using Ness, although the set of 
things you can do with it is VERY different from what you get in Emacs.

}
I've written a meta-x package.  I'll put it on expo.


\quotation{\quotation{I \italic{really, really wish} there was an 
\smaller{UNDO} in ez &c.

}}
\quotation{Ditto.  About a year and a half ago, we came up with a scheme for a 
"next generation" toolkit that could do an arbitrary undo within the 
distributed control structure of ATK-like architectures.  (Think about doing a 
sequence of operations, each with a different inset, and then expecting 
successive "undo" operations to work right.)  This exercise convinced me of 
two things:  it would be possible, and it would be a LOT of work -- undo in an 
environment with distributed control is a lot harder than it is for Emacs. 
 Our scheme involved having each proctable entry provide a "how to undo me" 
procedure which would be pushed onto an "undo stack" (along with some 
invocation-specific data) when the proctable entry was called!

}
I've heard this called "the best is the enemy of the good".  If we could have 
a separate undo list for each inset, not a unified list, that would go a 
\bold{very }long way toward allowing people to use EZ on a day-to-day basis 
(as a code editor, for example, where you don't really care about insets 
(yet)).


\quotation{\quotation{I wish there were indications in the margin about what 
kind of style [etc] the current para was.

}}
\quotation{Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with 
styles and try typing it.

}
I read this a bit differently.  Have you ever used InterLeaf WPS?  They have a 
strip to the side of the page that reflects the paragraph type.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish the code wouldn't contain quite so many magic 
constants and obscure defensive coding.

}}
\quotation{Magic constants are bad.  Defensive coding is good, however, so I 
find part of this complaint quite cryptic.  Personally, the more I look at 
source code for standard UNIX utilities, the more astounded I am that anything 
ever works at all.  

}
Maybe that's the way UNIX does quality control.  None of the `standard' 
applications have any error-checking code, they just expect the underlying 
mechanisms to work, so the OS people have to *make* them work.  Doesn't work 
out too well for people running research versions of the OS, though...


Bill

\enddata{text,2407320}

\enddata{text822, 258256}
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Date: 18 Jul 90 22:00:12 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Message-Id: <104072@convex.convex.com>
References: <MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>, <oad7DKH0BwwOE9tmop@transarc.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>> #foo# for checkpoint and foo~ or foo~n~ for old versions.
>If ATK and Emacs could agree on semantic points....


"emacs" does not imply "gnu"

--
\enddata{text822, 262942}
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Date: 19 Jul 90 10:03:47 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!nuug!sigyn.idt.unit.no!sigyn.idt.unit.no!roarbre@bloom-beacon.mit.edu  (Roar Brevik)
Organization: Div. of CS & T, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Subject: Editing with BUSH
Message-Id: <1990Jul19.100347.1132@idt.unit.no>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

I cannot get my BUSH application to open an editing window (editor: ez).
How do I set the "command" with which BUSH starts an editing session?

Roar
\enddata{text822, 264452}
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 08:25:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

Excerpts from info-andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew... Bill
Janssen@parc.xerox. (2504+0)

> Maybe that's the way UNIX does quality control.  None of the `standard'
> applications have any error-checking code, they just expect the
> underlying mechanisms to work, so the OS people have to *make* them
> work.  Doesn't work out too well for people running research versions of
> the OS, though...

I can't let this one slip by.  Most of the critical system calls are
DOCUMENTED to have conditions when they fail.  A responsible system
designer therefore has to consider the consequences when this happens. 
You can build, for example, the most reliable file system in the world,
but it will still occasionally fail to store files -- what you expect,
however, is that it will tell you whether or not it has succeeded, and
let you respond accordingly.

I don't think this sort of thing works much better for
"industrial-strength" versions of UNIX than for "research" versions. 
The system calls typically have semantics that include reasonable
failure cases, and you have to consider these, that's all.  
\enddata{text822, 265935}
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 10:35:01 EDT
From: cheng@vienna.njit.edu (felicia cheng)
Message-Id: <9007191435.AA12094@vienna.njit.edu>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


Hi, 

I tried to complie andrew but kept on getting the following error messages.
I had changed the parameters in site.h several times, but it doesn't seem
to help. I am compiling in Sun OS 4.1. Any pointers will be appreciated.



cc -c -I. -I/pub/andrew/include/ams -O -I/pub/andrew/include/atk -I/pub/andrew/include -I//usr/include/X11   unixmach.c
/pub/andrew/include/site.h: 15: DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV redefined
rm -f morprntf.o
cc -c -I. -I/pub/andrew/include/ams -O -I/pub/andrew/include/atk -I/pub/andrew/include -I//usr/include/X11   morprntf.c
/pub/andrew/include/site.h: 15: DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV redefined
rm -f cuin
cc -O -I/pub/andrew/include/atk -I/pub/andrew/include -I//usr/include/X11   -o cuin  cui.o cuifns.o unixmach.o morprntf.o  /pub/andrew/lib/libcui.a /pub/andrew/lib/libcuin.a  /pub/andrew/lib/libmssrv.a /pub/andrew/lib/libmsshr.a  /pub/andrew/lib/libeli.a /pub/andrew/lib/librxp.a  /pub/andrew/lib/libmail.a /pub/andrew/lib/liberrors.a  /pub/andrew/lib/libplumber.a /pub/andrew/lib/libutil.a 	
ld: Undefined symbol 
   _dn_expand 
   _res_search 
   _res_init 
   __res 
   _dn_skipname 
*** Error code 2
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `cuin'
Current working directory /usr/local/src/X11R4/contrib/toolkits/andrew/ams/msclients/cui
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `dependInstall'
Current working directory /usr/local/src/X11R4/contrib/toolkits/andrew/ams/msclients/cui
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `dependInstall'
Current working directory /usr/local/src/X11R4/contrib/toolkits/andrew/ams/msclients
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `dependInstall'
Current working directory /usr/local/src/X11R4/contrib/toolkits/andrew/ams
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `dependInstall'
Current working directory /usr/local/src/X11R4/contrib/toolkits/andrew
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `World'
\enddata{text822, 268603}
\begindata{text822, 271633}
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From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,269866792}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 19-Jul-90 felicia cheng@vienna.nji 
(1976)}


\quotation{/pub/andrew/include/site.h: 15: DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV redefined

}

This warning is because you must must first #undefine the token before 
redefining it.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 19-Jul-90 felicia cheng@vienna.nji 
(1976)}


\quotation{ld: Undefined symbol 

}\quotation{   _dn_expand 

}\quotation{   _res_search 

}\quotation{   _res_init 

}\quotation{   __res 

}\quotation{   _dn_skipname 

}

I believe this is due to that fact that the token LIBRESOLV is not being 
defined.  From allsys.mcr:


\indent{/* Check and Set the RESOLVELIB path below */

/* There are at least two sources of libresolv.a */

/* 1) 4.3 distribution */

/* 2) bind distribution */

/* At CMU we use the bind distribution of libresolv.a */

#ifdef RESOLVER_ENV

/* if in a separate library: */

/*      RESOLVLIB = /usr/lib/libresolv.a

/* if in /lib/libc.a: */

        RESOLVLIB =

#else RESOLVER_ENV

        RESOLVLIB =

#endif RESOLVER_ENV

}
Find out where libresolv.a is located and set RESOLVLIB to point to it in your 
site.mcr file.  As well, be sure that resolv.h is in the INCLUDES path that 
you set.


Gary Keim

ATK Group

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From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Editing with BUSH
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References: <1990Jul19.100347.1132@idt.unit.no>

\begindata{text,269866792}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 19-Jul-90 Editing with BUSH Roar 
Brevik@bloom-beacon (149)}


\quotation{I cannot get my BUSH application to open an editing window (editor: 
ez).

}\quotation{How do I set the "command" with which BUSH starts an editing 
session?

}
You may be confused by the meaning of the 'editor:' button.  Use that button 
to set the editor that will be used when you activate the 'edit' button.  


From bush.help:


\italic{EDIT: } Allows you to edit a file with the editor of your choice.  To 
use this option, click the left mouse button on the line containing the name 
of the file you want to edit and then click on the 'Edit'  box.


\italic{EDITOR:}  Allows you to set your preferred editor for editing 
documents via Bush (see EDIT).  A colon-seperated list of possible editors may 
be specified by the preference option bush.editors.


That should do it.  Let me know if you have any other questions.


Gary Keim

ATK Group

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Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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Excerpts from ext.cmu.info-andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Bill Janssen@RCHGATE.rch (2504+0)

>>> I wish there were indications in the margin about what kind of style
>>> [etc] the current para was.

>> Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with styles
>> and try typing it.

> I read this a bit differently.  Have you ever used InterLeaf WPS?  They
> have a strip to the side of the page that reflects the paragraph type.


I agree the strip would be really nice, but I survive with the following
line in my .ezinit, which gives me a popup menu item called Toggle
Expose Styles:

addmenu textview-toggle-expose-styles "File,Toggle Expose Styles~90"
textview

-wr
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: coupling ATK and lisp

Hi,

We are involved in the construction of user interfaces for expert systems.
For the expert-systems and the dialogue part of the interface, we would like to use 
Allegro Common lisp. For the presentation part of the interface, we are in doubt.
Or we use the (rather basic) Common Windows toolkit of Allegro, running on X, or we
use a more advanced toolkit, and in the first place we thought to use ATK. In the
latter case however, we envisage the problem of combining ATK and Allegro Common
Lisp. Has anyone significant experience in a) the use of ATK in a Lisp image, b) the
use of lisp in a ATK, or c) (generally) the interaction between an ATK application and
a Lisp image ?

Thanks.

Marc Van Liedekerke
Joint research Center of the CEC
ISEI TP 440
21020 Ispra (Va), Italy.

m_van_liedekerke@kbs.cite.jrc.it

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\begindata{text,951368}
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew... 
Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (11539+0)}


\quotation{I \italic{really} love these wish lists.   They're always very 
illuminating for all concerned.  Though I'm no longer part of the Andrew 
project, I can't resist commenting about some of them -- especially since a 
lot of them ARE things you can already do:

}
\quotation{\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 
Dear Saint Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@xerox. (7062+1)}

}
\quotation{\quotation{I wish text selections would be "pending delete" [ie, 
automatically deleted when a new character is typed] in much the style of the 
Macintosh, Sun, and many Xerox environments.

}}
\quotation{Personally, I'd hate this, but it would be nice to have it as an 
option.

}
Yes, please, make it an option.  I guess one's preference is very much what 
one has gotten used to -- many of us who have the other paradigm well burnt 
into our spinal marrow from extensive use of the other systems.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish I had M-X...

}}
\quotation{I believe that you do, sort of, using Ness, although the set of 
things you can do with it is VERY different from what you get in Emacs.

}
\quotation{More likely, though, this complaint is really a lot like many of 
your other complaints, which are "I wish it was more like Gnu Emacs."  When 
you think about it though, the only reason you make these complaints is that 
it's amazingly close to begin with.  Complete compatibility between two such 
different systems is fundamentally very unlikely.  I agree, however, that 
there are a few places where they could be more consistent, but here's a 
little-known fact:  EZ has been around longer than Gnu Emacs!

}
Yes, it is true that I many times wished EZ was even closer to Emacs than it 
already is (in fact, I even wish that the two were were one and the same 
program!).  EZ may have been around longer than GNU Emacs, but remember that 
GNU Emacs itself is just a decendent of ITS/Twenex Emacs by the same author. 
 It's changed a lot since then, but I think it's done a pretty good job still 
of keeping itself remarkably consistent with the original Emacs.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish printing a document wouldn't be dependent on 
having troff -- most of the formatting is already done by Andrew, so why not 
just produce PostScript (or something DVI-like) right away?

}}
\quotation{I share your wish, but it's a lot harder than you imply.  This 
would be a major amount of work.

}
Is this really true?  It seems to me that getting at least what I see on my 
screen put on piece paper ought not to require a major effort.  For things 
like footnotes and tables of contents, I can't really tell.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish Messages wouldn't distinguish between operations 
on the selected message and operations on all marked messages.  Clearly, one 
is just a special case of the other (and by jove it's confusing to find which 
operations are supported where).

}}
\quotation{Well, I believed that for a long time, and tried to figure out a 
way to make it work.  The problem is, one really\italic{ isn't} a special case 
of the other, or at least so I finally concluded.  What I would now like to 
see, instead, would be a notion of "virtual folders" where you could select 
some messages and treat them as if they were a whole folder.  (I believe Rob 
Hagens, at U of Wisconsin, is now building a mailer that includes this 
concept.)

}
But wait!  If I just look at the operations that are available through the 
menu stack (deck?), most of the ones applicable to individual messages also 
have its twin in the "marked messages" section.  Only the ones in italic below 
seems to be solely applicable to either one or the other (or neither).  So it 
seems to me that one could at least write a set of substitute functions that 
would check wether or not any messages had been marked and then invoked the 
appropriate single/multi messages function function instead.  Maybe you were 
thinking about something else, though?


\display{\bold{This Message	Send/File Mrkd	Marked Msgs}


\italic{Forward To}		File All Into	Next		Delete/Undelete

Resend To		Copy All Into	Previous

\italic{Restore Draft}		Append To Folder			Reply to Sender

					Delete All		Reply to All

Append to File	Append To File	Undelete All

							\italic{Read Mail}

\italic{Descramble}		Reply to Senders	Print All

\italic{Fixed Width}		Reply to All			\italic{Send/Post Message}

					\italic{Clear Marks}

Print		Resend All			\italic{Delete Window}

					\italic{Count Marks}

Mark as Unread	Except All				\italic{Quit}

}

\quotation{\quotation{I wish "Insert Header" would work even when the caret is 
in the body window 

}}
\quotation{Doesn't it?  Sounds like a trivial bug to fix...

}
It probably is.  And while on the subject of small fixes (but in a totally 
different context), how about giving feedback on when doing dialog box 
selections with the mouse?  As it is now, when I press a mouse button over a 
"choice box", no feedback is given on which item I'm selecing.  If I select it 
from the keyboard, though, it becomes inverted inpreparation to a confirmation 
with the RETURN key.  It would be nice if "mouse button down" would give the 
same feedback.


\quotation{\quotation{Printing hidden headers as footnotes is a nifty idea, 
but I wish it could be turned off -- and when on, that they wouldn't be 
(left-and-right) justified!

}}
\quotation{I don't know about the justification, but it can be turned off -- 
there are preference options for this.  I think they're even documented.  

}
\quotation{\bold{*.usefootnote:no }-- will cause the headers to all show up at 
the top of the page.

}
\quotation{\bold{*.printminorheaders: no }-- will cause the headers that would 
otherwise be in footnotes to simply be omitted.

}
That will do nicely, thanks.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow more than just RFC822 
addresses -- even though my mail backend (sendmail) allows me to send both XNS 
and UUCP formatted addresses, Messages insists on validating them as 
"user@domain".  [Is there a way to turn this off?]

}}
\quotation{There is, in principle, at least for UUCP, but I just checked it 
and it seems to be broken.  I'll look into it.  Meanwhile, you can use a trick 
like this one.  I assume your site has some full domain, which is specified to 
Andrew as ThisDomain, and that there are shorthand versions of it that Andrew 
doesn't know about.  You can use this to trick the system into thinking mail 
is external.  If your site is "foo.bar.baz" and "foo" is a valid nickname that 
Andrew hasn't been told about, then even if "x!y" doesn't work, "x!y@foo" 
should work fine.

}
Yes, but that work as well with XNS which has addresses looking like 
"User:Domain:Organization" (which can include spaces).  Sending something to 
"Jane Doe:Research:ACME@localhost" will cause AMS to choke with a syntax 
error, and putting the local part in double quotes will make sendmail spit it 
back with unknown recipient.  Ideally, I would just like be able to write 
"Jane Doe:Research:ACME" and have sendmail do the validation.  Having said 
that, I'll have to agree that it's very nice to have the UA do the validation 
before posting the message, but what if we can't agree on what a proper 
address looks like?  Really ideally, then, I would like to be able to "teach" 
AMS how to do address validation for a number of different protocols -- and 
local versions of the aliases database, etc.  Maybe there already is a way of 
doing this using the White Pages, but I haven't had time to figure that out 
yet.  (Buy, AMS is even more complex than sendmail! ;-)


\quotation{\quotation{I wish AMS would properly retain the envelope sender as 
found in the From_ line when retrieved from the user's mbox in 
/usr/spool/mail.  As it is now, at least the "X-Andrew-Authenticated-As" 
header is prepended to the message, pushing the "From " line down into the 
body of the headers (where it at least should be changed to a Return-Path: to 
belong).

}}
\quotation{I've suggested a similar idea in private mail to people at the ITC; 
I don't know if it's coming out as a patch or not, but it's probably a good 
idea.

}
I first tried to track down all the places where a new header was added to the 
message and make sure it was added after the From_ line.  After having patched 
two or three different places with no noticable result, I finally gave up and 
made cvtold.c turn the From_ line into a Return-Path: header instead.  [Patch 
available on request]  One thing puzzled me, though.  Std UNIX stores the 
envelope information in the From_ line, but where does AMDS put it?  Or maybe 
it doesn't keep any?


\quotation{\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't bluntly remove any user-supplied 
From: headers -- they're perfectly legal and perform the useful task of 
indicating a that the indicated sender is different from the (claimed) person 
sitting in front of the keyboard.

}}
\quotation{I believe this is NOT perfectly legal -- what you want here is a 
"Sender" header, which I *think* it will let you add.  "Reply-to" is also 
perfectly legitimate.

}
Nope, it's the other way around.  The "From" address may be specified by the 
UA, and if not authentic, must be supplemented with a "Sender" by the mail 
system, indicating the authenticated sender of the message.  See RFC822 
section 4.4.1 and 4.4.2.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't barf on a subject-less message 
(ugh!)

}}
\quotation{Yeah, this was a value judgement.  Personally, I hate getting mail 
without a subject.   Think of this as my personal plea for better network 
etiquette...

}
Hrrm, well, some messages don't actually go to people but to network archive 
servers, etc, where a subject usually is very optional.  Besides, IMHO, 
legislation is not the right way to promote ethics...


\quotation{\quotation{I wish there would be a (one) consistent extension 
language, not ELI here and NESS there etc.

}}
\quotation{Not to mention preferences, init files, and so on...

}
Yup, and you aren't alone -- just look at X (or don't depending on how 
sensitive you are)!


\quotation{\quotation{I wish the code wouldn't contain quite so many magic 
constants and obscure defensive coding.

}}
\quotation{Magic constants are bad.  Defensive coding is good, however, so I 
find part of this complaint quite cryptic.  Personally, the more I look at 
source code for standard UNIX utilities, the more astounded I am that anything 
ever works at all.  

}
Well, I guess this is something up to discussion, but as I see it, the more I 
can trust on some underlying functionality to do the job, the less I need to 
think about all the possible ways it could go wrong.  This surely is a 
\italic{good thing} in 99% of all cases.  To make a naive analogy with TCP and 
UDP: The very reason for TCP's existence is that it's (supposedly) 
\italic{reliable}, making it possible for the programmer to largely forget 
about possible failures on the network.  When it comes to Andrew, there seems 
to be an awful lot of code there which solely is concerned with the success or 
failure of an AFS call.  This has the effect of obscuring the true function of 
the code and making hard to understand, especially for someone outside the 
original development community.  Even if there are many ways something may go 
wrong in a distributed FS environment, it seems to me that trying to make the 
applications programs compensate to compensate for this would be to attack the 
problem on the wrong level.


From a user's standpoint, I agree that defensive coding is good if it makes 
the system more reliable.  I only wish that it could have been confined to 
just a very few key places.


\quotation{Gee, that was fun.  -- Nathaniel

}
The pleasure was all mine, sir...



\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew... 
Craig_Everhart@transarc. (5162+0)}


\quotation{Adam and Nathaniel have filled in lots of good answers (including 
both ``here's how to do that, I think'' and ``here's a partial answer to your 
wish'').

}
\quotation{\quotation{\bold{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Dear 
Saint Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (7062+1)}

}}
\quotation{\quotation{I wish I wouldn't have to type M-@ to select a region 
[for further kill-region, etc.] -- it's really confusing when moving between 
ez and emacs.

}}
\quotation{Simple--don't use emacs.  (:-))

}
I wish I could...


\quotation{\quotation{I wish backup and checkpointing could be compatible with 
gnu emacs, ie. #foo# for checkpoint and foo~ or foo~n~ for old versions.

}}
\quotation{If ATK and Emacs could agree on semantic points....

}
You mean things like copy versus rename etc?  Yeah, right.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish there was support for setting \bold{tab stops}! 
 [What no tabs??!  You must be joking!]

}}
\quotation{Right.  But look at what named tabs did to Bravo, in the old days: 
made it almost slow enough to be unusable.

}
Huh?  But that was on ye olde Alto, yes?  So why should it be impossible (or 
even hard) to have efficient tabs on UNIX workstations today when all the Mac 
apps has it on smaller machines?  If Andrew is beginning to show it's age, 
maybe it's time to perform a substantial rejuvenation.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish Messages would show the messages in chronological 
order by the Date: field -- as opposed to in the order they arrive, since 
messages frequently get arbitrarily delayed during the transport and thus 
arrive in a jumbled order.  (Or is this already supposed to happen?  But I 
have messages that 

}}
\quotation{Sigh.  You can re-sort your own folders by evaluated-Date: header 
value.


}How?  (Except for writing my own date parser and copying the messages from 
one folder to another and running cui's scavenge.)


\quotation{AMS doesn't at present maintain more than a high-water-mark within 
a folder saying what messages you've seen, so messages are, by default, sorted 
by arrival time since that's the only way AMS can show you the ones you 
haven't seen yet.  (Yes, it could micro-optimize the case where it's appending 
several messages at once, and sort those, but that's small payoff since it 
couldn't sort new messages to a spot before the last old message.) 
 Substantial rewriting would have to take place to get this to work right. 
 (The date parser doesn't handle time zones properly, either, so you'd get 
somewhat anomalous results.)

}
I'm confused.  Do you by "seen" mean the same as "read"?  Because I thought 
each individual message was flagged when I read it, which would allow me to 
have "gaps" of unseen messages in a folder.  At least, so it appears.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish Messages et al would allow more than just RFC822 
addresses -- even though my mail backend (sendmail) allows me to send both XNS 
and UUCP formatted addresses, Messages insists on validating them as 
"user@domain".  [Is there a way to turn this off?]

}}
\quotation{UUCP addresses should work a little bit, if you have the 
appropriate AndrewSetup option on.  You might have asked for x.400/x.500 
addresses as well.  Good idea.

}
Yes, please.  And an actual X.400 mail transport service, and a dito X.500 
mail directory service, and...  ;-)


\quotation{\quotation{I wish AMS would properly retain the envelope sender as 
found in the From_ line when retrieved from the user's mbox in 
/usr/spool/mail.  As it is now, at least the "X-Andrew-Authenticated-As" 
header is prepended to the message, pushing the "From " line down into the 
body of the headers (where it at least should be changed to a Return-Path: to 
belong).

}}
\quotation{Yes, this should be supported.  If AMS thinks it's in an RFC822 
world, it should convert the UUCP-ish envelope-from information to what it can 
understand.

}
Right, although a "From " line doesn't imply anything about UUCP -- it's just 
the convention for separating messages in the user's /usr/spool/mail file.


\quotation{\quotation{I wish AMS wouldn't bluntly remove any user-supplied 
From: headers -- they're perfectly legal and perform the useful task of 
indicating a that the indicated sender is different from the (claimed) person 
sitting in front of the keyboard.

}}
\quotation{They're legal only if they work for a remote user.  (At a college 
campus, it's been important for AMS to try to keep From: headers reasonably 
honest.)  AMS might well have to add a Sender: header if the From: header 
wouldn't work, or maybe add a Reply-to: header as well.

}
No, no, please don't add any "Reply-to" headers automatically!  Well, or at 
least make it user-optional.  Some Xerox-internal mail systems insist on 
adding "Reply-to" headers when they really have no business doing so, so it's 
a bit of a sore spot with me.


\quotation{Thanks for the list!  It's good to go through it.

}
\quotation{		Craig

}
Thanks for taking the time to answer it!


And the same goes to all you other people who answered.  It's clear to that 
you take pride in your creation (and rightly so), but it's even more 
encouraging to see that you're open for suggestions and improvements.


Thanks again,

--Lennart

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\enddata{text822, 281316}
\begindata{text822, 301945}
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Date: 19 Jul 90 17:46:55 GMT
From: agate!shelby!neon!lucid.com!jwz@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Jamie Zawinski)
Subject: From and Sender fields
Message-Id: <2257@heavens-gate.lucid.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


I think it's totally wrong to disallow the editing of the From field.
RFC822 says that From: is "the person(s) who wished this message to be sent"
and if From: differs from the authenticated sending agent, then there must
be a Sender: field which contains the authenticated agent.  My interpretation
of this is that editing the Sender: field shouldn't be allowed, but From:
should.  Also, the standard says that the From: field can contain multiple
addresses, in the case of multiple authors.

If forged mail is your concern, then just make sure that, if the From: field
doesn't contain the mailbox of the logged-in user, that a correct Sender:
field is added.  The CMU CS mailer does this...

When I had an andrew account at CMU, the main reason that I hated not being
able to edit the From: field was that the Powers That Be decided that my 
middle name should be in the passwd file, but I didn't want it in the From:
line.  Sure, this is trivial, but it really annoyed me that I couldn't change
it.

If you're still not buying it, then how about making it a site-configuration
parameter so that sites which don't have the user-maturity problems of a
university don't have to live with this restriction?

		-- Jamie
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Nichols <nichols@parc.xerox.com>
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Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject:  Flames bug?

\begindata{text,2422952}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I tried using the \typewriter{post-by-keyword} function, about which 
Flames.pgr claims


\quotation{The headers-keywords-folders mappings are considered in sequence; 
if one matches, the rest of the mappings are not considered.}


However, when I tried it, my messages were classifed into all the mappings 
that matched.  The problem is in \typewriter{map-heads-keys-folders} which is 
supposed to return the list of folders that the mappings match for a given 
message:


\typewriter{\smaller{(defun map-heads-keys-folders (msg biglist)

  (cond ((null biglist) NIL)

        (T (append (let* ((ca (car biglist))

                          (cda (cdr ca)))

                     (mhkf msg

                           (car ca)

                           (car cda)

                           (car (cdr cda))

                           NIL))

                   (map-heads-keys-folders msg

                                           (cdr biglist))))))

}}
This function, however, returns all the mapping that match because of the

  \typewriter{\smaller{(append (\italic{stuff that matches the car}) 
(\italic{recursive call to match the cdr}))}}

form.  I changed it in my .AMS.flames files as follows, and it appears to 
work:


\typewriter{\smaller{(defun my-map-heads-keys-folders (msg biglist)

  (cond ((null biglist) NIL)

        (T (let* ((ca (car biglist))

		  (cda (cdr ca))

		  (folders (mhkf msg

				 (car ca)

				 (car cda)

				 (car (cdr cda))

				 NIL)))

	     (cond (folders folders)

		  (T (my-map-heads-keys-folders msg (cdr biglist))))))))

}}
I sure the more experienced flames/lisp hackers out there can improve on this.


	David

\enddata{text,2422952}

\enddata{text822, 304403}
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 15:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <gadSa6k91E475=QI5Z@rchland.ibm.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gadSa6k91E475=QI5Z@rchland.ibm.com>

\begindata{text,2860488}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Wayne Richardson@rchland (697)}


\quotation{I agree the strip would be really nice, but I survive with the 
following} \quotation{line in my .ezinit, which gives me a popup menu item 
called Toggle} \quotation{Expose Styles:

}
\quotation{addmenu textview-toggle-expose-styles "File,Toggle Expose 
Styles~90"} \quotation{textview

}
My (possibly flawed) recollection is that this is not documented or heavily 
promoted because it is sometimes buggy in disturbing ways.  But it is very 
useful, and does seem to work most of the time...


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\enddata{text822, 307743}
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 16:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu,
        Mark van Liedekerke <m_van_liedekerke@cen.jrc.it>
Subject: Re: coupling ATK and lisp
In-Reply-To: <9007191246.AA06513@kbs.cite.jrc.it>
References: <9007191246.AA06513@kbs.cite.jrc.it>

\begindata{text,2361504}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.andrew: 19-Jul-90 coupling ATK and lisp 
Mark van Liedekerke@cen. (817)}


\quotation{Has anyone significant experience in a) the use of ATK in a Lisp 
image, b) the

}\quotation{use of lisp in a ATK, or c) (generally) the interaction between an 
ATK application and

}\quotation{a Lisp image ?

}
Yep on (a) and (c).  I've written code in Franz Allegro Common Lisp to control 
an edit server based on EZ.  The lisp code basically makes CLOS-concealed RPC 
calls, over an INET socket, to the edit server, which performed editing 
operations.  Worked OK, but I found the RPC solution rather clumsy for an 
editor.


I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has linked or loaded runapp into 
a Lisp image, and used foreign function calls to call ATK.


Bill




\enddata{text,2361504}

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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Craig_Everhart@Transarc.COM,
        Lennart Lovstrand <lovstrand.EuroPARC@Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (15952+1)}


\quotation{But wait!  If I just look at the operations that are available 
through the menu stack (deck?), most of the ones applicable to individual 
messages also have its twin in the "marked messages" section.  Only the ones 
in italic below seems to be solely applicable to either one or the other (or 
neither).  So it seems to me that one could at least write a set of substitute 
functions that would check wether or not any messages had been marked and then 
invoked the appropriate single/multi messages function function instead. 
 Maybe you were thinking about something else, though?

}
Yeah, the thing is that there are times when the choice isn't obvious.  For 
example, sometimes people mark things as they're reading a folder, planning to 
deal with them \italic{en masse} at the end.    So they're reading the Nth 
message, with K marked so far, and they say "delete".  Now, do they mean 
delete this Nth message that I'm reading at the moment, or the K messages that 
are already marked?


\quotation{I first tried to track down all the places where a new header was 
added to the message and make sure it was added after the From_ line.  After 
having patched two or three different places with no noticable result, I 
finally gave up and made cvtold.c turn the From_ line into a Return-Path: 
header instead.  [Patch available on request]  One thing puzzled me, though. 
 Std UNIX stores the envelope information in the From_ line, but where does 
AMDS put it?  Or maybe it doesn't keep any?

}
In the Return-path, I believe.  By the way, I'd strongly encourage you to send 
that patch back to the ITC.  


\quotation{Nope, it's the other way around.  The "From" address may be 
specified by the UA, and if not authentic, must be supplemented with a 
"Sender" by the mail system, indicating the authenticated sender of the 
message.  See RFC822 section 4.4.1 and 4.4.2.

}
OK, so sue me -- I was talking from memory and had it backwards.  The gist of 
what I was saying remains true, which is that it isn't as simple as just 
eliminating the code that nukes the From lines -- you also have to add code 
that does the right thing with a Sender line.  I guess that wouldn't really 
hurt, and would be easily implemented.


\quotation{Well, I guess this is something up to discussion, but as I see it, 
the more I can trust on some underlying functionality to do the job, the less 
I need to think about all the possible ways it could go wrong.  This surely is 
a \italic{good thing} in 99% of all cases.  To make a naive analogy with TCP 
and UDP: The very reason for TCP's existence is that it's (supposedly) 
\italic{reliable}, making it possible for the programmer to largely forget 
about possible failures on the network.  When it comes to Andrew, there seems 
to be an awful lot of code there which solely is concerned with the success or 
failure of an AFS call.  This has the effect of obscuring the true function of 
the code and making hard to understand, especially for someone outside the 
original development community.  Even if there are many ways something may go 
wrong in a distributed FS environment, it seems to me that trying to make the 
applications programs compensate to compensate for this would be to attack the 
problem on the wrong level.

}
Actually, there is (or used to be, I don't know which) an AFS option that said 
"don't ever let any FS operations fail -- just wait forever if necessary until 
you can make them succeed."  If that had been the way AFS always behaved, the 
AMS code would have been much simpler.  Unfortunately, that turns out to be 
NOT the behavior users want when one file server out of twenty goes down...


\quotation{>From a user's standpoint, I agree that defensive coding is good if 
it makes the system more reliable.  I only wish that it could have been 
confined to just a very few key places.

}
Yeah, it could have been more modular, I'll grant that readily enough.


\quotation{\quotation{Sigh.  You can re-sort your own folders by 
evaluated-Date: header value.

}
}\quotation{How?  (Except for writing my own date parser and copying the 
messages from one folder to another and running cui's scavenge.)

}
Use the CUI "reconstruct" command.


\quotation{Thanks for taking the time to answer it!

}
\quotation{And the same goes to all you other people who answered.  It's clear 
to that you take pride in your creation (and rightly so), but it's even more 
encouraging to see that you're open for suggestions and improvements.

}
It's easy for me to be open-minded,  since I'm no longer the one fixing the 
code... 
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$S 70,46
Ha-ha!
$$
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\bold{\bigger{\bigger{Nathaniel S. Borenstein }}}<nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>

\italic{Member of Technical Staff,  Bell Communications Research}

\smaller{\smaller{Office: Bellcore Room MRE 2A-274, 445 South Street, 
Morristown, NJ 07962-1910

Work phone:  (201) 829-4270     Work FAX:  (201) 829-7019

Home: 25 Washington Ave., Morristown, NJ 07960, (201) 993-8586}}


}\enddata{text,2860488}

\enddata{text822, 312731}
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Reply-To: <wdr@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>


Excerpts from ext.cmu.info-andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Bill Janssen@RCHGATE.rch (2504+0)

>>> I wish there were indications in the margin about what kind of style
>>> [etc] the current para was.

>> Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with styles
>> and try typing it.

> I read this a bit differently.  Have you ever used InterLeaf WPS?  They
> have a strip to the side of the page that reflects the paragraph type.


I agree the strip would be really nice, but I survive with the following
line in my .ezinit, which gives me a popup menu item called Toggle
Expose Styles:

addmenu textview-toggle-expose-styles "File,Toggle Expose Styles~90"
textview

-wr
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 09:29:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: From and Sender fields
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References: <2257@heavens-gate.lucid.com>

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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 From and 
Sender fields Jamie Zawinski@ucbvax.be (1220)}


\quotation{When I had an andrew account at CMU, the main reason that I hated 
not being} \quotation{able to edit the From: field was that the Powers That Be 
decided that my } \quotation{middle name should be in the passwd file, but I 
didn't want it in the From:} \quotation{line.  Sure, this is trivial, but it 
really annoyed me that I couldn't change} \quotation{it.

}
OK, I wasn't one of the "Powers That Be" who made decisions about middle names 
and the like, but I was one of the people who made it impossible for you to 
edit the From field.  Lets consider what you're asking for, precisely.  I 
don't remember your middle name or login id, but say AMS was generating


From:  Jamie Lee Zawinski <jamie+@andrew.cmu.edu>


What you're requesting is the ability to, yourself, change it to:


From:  Jamie Zawinski <jamie+@andrew.cmu.edu>


Sounds reasonable.  Technically, I'd interpret this to mean you have the 
freedom to at least change the RFC822 "route-phrase" to whatever you want. 
 Now, does this change imply that a Sender field should be added?  Probably 
not, if you don't change the actual mail routing -- most mailers show people 
the From field if both it and a Sender field exist, so you won't change what 
people actually SEE, and those in the know can still trace the mail from this 
From: line.  So you don't really need to add a Sender unless the 
<jamie+@andrew.cmu.edu> part is chnaged, probably.


However, the fact that most mailers show people the From: line is actually the 
heart of the problem.  I'd contend that this means that user-supplied From: 
fields are A bad thing, because you can now produce anti-social efects that 
are likely to confuse many people, e.g. with


From:  Herb Simon <jamie+@andrew.cmu.edu>


or, if you go further and force us to add a Sender field, you can confuse 
naive recipients who won't look at the Sender field even more:


From:  Herb Simon <simon@andrew.cmu.edu> 


(For those who don't know, Simon is CMU's Nobel Laureate, and that's NOT his 
real address.)   The point is, if you can fool with your From: field, you can 
effectively lie about who you are to the majority of (relatively naive) people 
who might read your mail.  


To understand why we cared about things like this and thought our way through 
to this kind of policy, you should go back in time five years.  We were about 
to give all of CMU's undergraduates access to the Internet, the first time 
anything like that had been done, to our knowledge.  (Previously, network 
access was generally effectively restricted to researchers, grad students, and 
other "reasonable people" -- I don't know of any internet sites where this 
wasn't the case either by policy or by the practical reality of the number of 
available machines.)    We were, to be blunt, scared stiff.  DARPA was said to 
be watching closely, ready to pull the plug on CMU's Internet connection at a 
moment's notice.   In consequence, CMU's CS mail gurus were watching the 
Andrew folks closely, ready to pull the plug on our connection to them, which 
is what gatewayed us to Internet, to protect their OWN Internet access.  We 
thought long and hard about questions like, "how can we encourage more 
responsible use of the network?"  We even talked to some psychologists & 
social scientists about this question.


The result of all that effort was several features that hard-core UNIX users 
sometimes find annoying -- for example, the requirement of a Subject line, the 
absence of a BCC feature, the fact that you can't alter your From line, and so 
on.  An important point to make is that IT WORKED.  There have been a small 
handful of abuses, but much lower that what I've heard about at other sites 
where the number of students is much smaller.  Even more notably, the bboard 
system at CMU is for the most part remarkable civilized (there are designated 
places on it where civilization is not expected, which helps) compared to 
other bboard systems, most probably because all posts have real (even 
authenticated!) names attached.  Adding a few carefully considered 
restrictions to the system really seems to have paid off in the overall 
communication environment we created.  (For a list of relevant restrictions & 
features, see the message "Social Experiments" in the standard AMS demo that 
comes on the Andrew tape.)


I don't think these restrictions are all that hard to live with.  The only 
case in which not being able to write your own From field really matters is 
where AMS is somehow generating an incorrect one, and for that you can always 
use Reply-To: -- indeed, that's what that headers is for.


\quotation{If you're still not buying it, then how about making it a 
site-configuration} \quotation{parameter so that sites which don't have the 
user-maturity problems of a} \quotation{university don't have to live with 
this restriction?

}
... or the other, similar restrictions alluded to above, I imagine.  I 
wouldn't argue hard against such an option, but I wouldn't argue for it either 
-- I'm skeptical that just because people are computer professionals they're 
never going to be anti-social.


			-- Nathaniel

\enddata{text,2860488}

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\begindata{text,18879340}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\quotation{\bold{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (15952+1)}

}
\quotation{Yes, but that work as well with XNS which has addresses looking 
like "User:Domain:Organization" (which can include spaces).  Sending something 
to "Jane Doe:Research:ACME@localhost" will cause AMS to choke with a syntax 
error, and putting the local part in double quotes will make sendmail spit it 
back with unknown recipient.  Ideally, I would just like be able to write 
"Jane Doe:Research:ACME" and have sendmail do the validation.  Having said 
that, I'll have to agree that it's very nice to have the UA do the validation 
before posting the message, but what if we can't agree on what a proper 
address looks like?  Really ideally, then, I would like to be able to "teach" 
AMS how to do address validation for a number of different protocols -- and 
local versions of the aliases database, etc.  Maybe there already is a way of 
doing this using the White Pages, but I haven't had time to figure that out 
yet.  (Buy, AMS is even more complex than sendmail! ;-)

}
Quoting the local-part shouldn't cause your sendmail to choke; it should know 
how to strip the quotes.  You're right on, though, that AMS expects to live in 
an RFC822 world, and any attempt to veer from that causes trouble.  In this 
case, you're right that it's not doing a very good job of allowing you to 
express these non-RFC822 addresses, and there's no current fall-back from 
that.  Wow, another address-validation request: don't even bother parsing the 
addresses, but just leave 'em alone.  Or parse them in some broader syntax, 
and try to handle the ones you recognize.


\quotation{Nope, it's the other way around.  The "From" address may be 
specified by the UA, and if not authentic, must be supplemented with a 
"Sender" by the mail system, indicating the authenticated sender of the 
message.  See RFC822 section 4.4.1 and 4.4.2.

}
It's still not nice to send From: lines that don't at least parse.  You might 
want to add Reply-to: in case the From: is parseable but unreplyable, for 
example when your friend without a computer account wants to send a piece of 
mail.  Old Tops-10 RdMail used to add such a Reply-to: field automatically, 
when From: was unreplyable.


I enjoyed reading Nathaniel's blurb on ``social experiments'' and can echo 
most of his sentiments.  Again, though, I now believe that one can write a 
socially-responsible MUA while allowing users to change the From: line (in 
some ill-specified ways).  It's just a matter of work and taste.


\quotation{Even if there are many ways something may go wrong in a distributed 
FS environment, it seems to me that trying to make the applications programs 
compensate to compensate for this would be to attack the problem on the wrong 
level.

}
I think Butler Lampson disagrees with this, in the advice-for-system-designers 
paper of about 1983; he claims that failures should be made visible 
end-to-end, so that after all lower-level recovery attempts have failed, the 
application, and eventually the user, will still have to cope with an 
underlying failure.


TCP was a reliability improvement over UDP partly because it implemented a 
different abstraction.  The AFS story is that it is a distributed file system 
programmed to the Unix system call interface, and indeed each call can 
separately fail.  You could imagine another interface behind which many 
failures could be handled, and recovered, for you, but it's difficult to make 
incremental changes to the syscall interface to achieve that.


\quotation{I'm confused.  Do you by "seen" mean the same as "read"?  Because I 
thought each individual message was flagged when I read it, which would allow 
me to have "gaps" of unseen messages in a folder.  At least, so it appears.

}
Here's a difference between folders to which you have update access (like your 
personal ones) and folders to which you have only read access (like public 
bboards).  If you have update access, sure, you own the 
has-this-message-been-examined bit in the .MS_MsgDir file, and those bits are 
set independently.  If you don't have such access, the state of those bits 
isn't written back to that file, and the only record (from session to session) 
of which messages you've seen is the high-water-mark.


\quotation{Right, although a "From " line doesn't imply anything about UUCP -- 
it's just the convention for separating messages in the user's /usr/spool/mail 
file.

}
A ``From '' line is more than the separator for /usr/spool/mail/eeeee 
messages; it's the delivered copy's record of the message envelope.  That 
function it shares with RFC822 Return-path:.


		Craig


\enddata{text,18879340}

\enddata{text822, 335978}
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\begindata{text,2408044}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
[This Message vs Marked Messages]

\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (4870+3)}


\quotation{Yeah, the thing is that there are times when the choice isn't 
obvious.  For example, sometimes people mark things as they're reading a 
folder, planning to deal with them \italic{en masse} at the end.    So they're 
reading the Nth message, with K marked so far, and they say "delete".  Now, do 
they mean delete this Nth message that I'm reading at the moment, or the K 
messages that are already marked?

}
I was about to write the same thing - even with the ability to (a) Undelte all 
those messages you just accidently deleted, and (b) the ability to Clear Marks 
and then Restore Old Marks -- Suppose instead of Delete you chose Print with 
100 messages marked, when you only wanted to print the one you were looking at 
-- it's not always something that can be easily cleared up (especially for 
users who are not that involved with computers and the workings of programs)



\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (15952+1)}


\quotation{\quotation{\quotation{I wish there was support for setting 
\bold{tab stops}!  [What no tabs??!  You must be joking!]

}}}
\quotation{\quotation{Right.  But look at what named tabs did to Bravo, in the 
old days: made it almost slow enough to be unusable.

}}
\quotation{Huh?  But that was on ye olde Alto, yes?  So why should it be 
impossible (or even hard) to have efficient tabs on UNIX workstations today 
when all the Mac apps has it on smaller machines?  If Andrew is beginning to 
show it's age, maybe it's time to perform a substantial rejuvenation.

}

In my limited experience with Mac's (i.e. those with the built in monitor - 
not any with large external monitors) - tabs are relatively easy because 
they've already defined the constraints of the "page".


The ATK was developed on top of a window manager on a 19" monitor - allowing 
not only variable width fonts, but variable width (and height) windows.  This 
puts a somewhat obvious fork in the road -- do you constrain the contents of 
the window to fit some ideal, so that you can easily determine where tab stops 
and page breaks are -- or do you make use of all the space your given.


True, this may be a somewhat simplistic comparison - but considering how 
different a piece of text can look if it's in a 3 inch wide window frm how it 
looks in a 12 inch wide window - how would you support tabs consistantly in 
both??


Mac's (at least those with built in monitors) had it much easier. Out of 
curiosity, on a Mac if you make the window narrower than the full screen (in 
something like MacWrite...)  - does the text wrap earlier, or does it simply 
get chopped off at the right-hand edge? (or will it even let you reduce the 
width of the window???)


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Lennart Lovstrand@Xerox. (15952+1)}


\quotation{\quotation{AMS doesn't at present maintain more than a 
high-water-mark within a folder saying what messages you've seen, so messages 
are, by default, sorted by arrival time since that's the only way AMS can show 
you the ones you haven't seen yet.  .......

}}
\quotation{I'm confused.  Do you by "seen" mean the same as "read"?  Because I 
thought each individual message was flagged when I read it, which would allow 
me to have "gaps" of unseen messages in a folder.  At least, so it appears.

}
"seen" is correct in terms of meaning "shown the caption of"


In a personal mail folder you may have many messages which you were shown the 
captions for, but which you did not read - the "high-water-mark" points to the 
last (or just after the last) caption you were shown when you last looked at 
the captions for that folder [unless you specifically set the mark earlier].


In a public bboard folder - all messages prior to the last one shown you are 
considered as "read" (whether or not you actually did read them), but the 
"high-water-mark" still points to the last caption you were shown when you 
last looked at the captions for that folder.


--fish\
\enddata{text,2408044}

\enddata{text822, 342168}
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\begindata{text,270115852}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.cmu.info-andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint
Andrew... Bill Janssen@RCHGATE.rch (2504+0)}


\quotation{\quotation{\quotation{I wish there were indications in the margin
about what kind of style [etc] the current para was.

}}}
\quotation{\quotation{Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of
text with styles and try typing it.

}}
\quotation{I read this a bit differently.  Have you ever used InterLeaf WPS?
 They have a strip to the side of the page that reflects the paragraph type.

}

I agree the strip would be really nice, but I survive with the following line
in my .ezinit, which gives me a popup menu item called \italic{Toggle Expose
Styles}:


addmenu textview-toggle-expose-styles "File,Toggle Expose Styles~90" textview


-wr

\enddata{text,270115852}

\enddata{text822, 347839}
\begindata{text822, 351216}
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 1990 12:07:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Steven Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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If-Type-Unsupported: send
To: ITC-Bulletin-Board <itcbb+itc@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Craig_Everhart@transarc.com,
    Stephen Webster <steve+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    "Gregory S. Fox" <gf0c+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    "Bruce R. Miller" <bm17+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
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Subject: Project Solar Sail

\begindata{text,270470752}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}


The World Space Foundation is an independent group of aerospace engineers, 
science fiction authors, and space enthusiasts, among whose missions is to put 
a solar sail craft of their own design and construction into Earth orbit.


Solar sailing is a viable and inexpensive technology for propulsion in outer 
space.  Like the old sailing ships of yore, they require no fuel to maneuver. 
 Instead, a solar sailing craft uses an enormous, lightweight, reflective sail 
which catches sunlight and propels the craft by light pressure.  (As you 
probably know, light energy exerts a minute amount of pressure on any surface 
is strikes.  In space, where there is no air resistance, this tiny bit of 
pressure can actually be used to move a craft.)  As with wind-driven sailing 
ships, a solar sail can be angled to maneuver the craft.


A solar sail craft clearly would accelerate at a snail's pace (about a 
thousandth of a g).  However, with the inexhaustible supply of sunlight 
constantly exerting pressure, a solar sail craft with a reasonably-sized sail 
can reach one mile per hour in a minute, two thousand miles per hour in a day, 
and can reach Earth's escape velocity in two days of orbiting.


In the 70's, NASA considered a solar sail craft laden with scientific 
instrumentation to rendezvous with Halley's comet.  The project, alas, was 
scrapped for lack of funds.


Various applications for solar-sail craft have been envisioned.  Solar sails 
could bring supplies to Mars long before a manned mission ever goes there, and 
thus the manned craft's payload would be more capacious.  An interstellar 
solar sail craft called \italic{Starwisp}, propelled by laser light from a 
solar-powered laser within the orbit of Mercury, could travel to Alpha 
Centauri and beam back reconnaisance data from our nearest stellar companion. 
 \italic{Starwisp}, accelerating at 115g, would reach one-fifth the speed of 
light in one week, and we could have our first data from another star system 
within twenty-five years of launch.  A more ambitious probe, 
\italic{Starlite}, can actually be sent and \italic{stopped} in the vicinity 
of Alpha Centauri; then, using a clever trick, can also be turned around and 
sent back to Earth (all using a laser in \italic{our} sun's orbit!) to bring 
us samples from Alpha Centauri's satellites (should \italic{Starwisp} find 
any).


To promote the development of solar sail technology, the World Space 
Foundation has issued a challenge:  To celebrate the quincentennial of 
Columbus' voyage to the New World, a solar sail race to the moon is planned. 
 It is WSF's hope that a little healthy competition will precipitate exciting 
new advances in the area of solar sailing.


Arthur C. Clarke is the editor of, and a contributing author in the anthology, 
\italic{Project Solar Sail}.  This book is a collection of science fiction 
stories, not-so-sci-fi speculation, and scientific essays about solar sailing 
(including a treatment of the technology for \italic{Starwisp} and 
\italic{Starlite}, mentioned above).  Proceeds from the sale of the book 
benefit the World Space Foundation.  Other authors appearing in this 
collection are Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, Poul Anderson, Charles Sheffield, 
Larry Niven, and others.


The World Space Foundation needs your help to achieve its goals, among which 
are:


\description{\leftindent{1)  To place a working solar sail craft into Earth 
orbit (they've already begun constructing the sail);

2)  To promote popular awareness of solar sail technology and the benefits of 
space exploration;

3)  To help move space exploration out of the monopolistic clutches of big 
governments and into the hands of pioneering individuals, where exploration 
has traditionally belonged.

}}
If you wish to help the World Space Foundation, buying the book 
\italic{Project Solar Sail} is a good start.  You can also become a 
contributing member of the Foundation at any of three different contribution 
levels; membership coupons can be obtained from me (Bob Glickstein, 
bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu).  All members will have their names imprinted on WSF's 
first flying solar sail.


Please feel free to redistribute this message as you see fit.

\typewriter{\smaller{\smaller{
______________                  _____________________________

Bob Glickstein                | Internet: bobg@andrew.cmu.edu

Information Technology Center | Bitnet:   bobg%andrew@cmuccvma.bitnet

Carnegie Mellon University    | UUCP:     ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!bobg

Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890    |

(412) 268-6743                | Sinners can repent, but stupid is forever

}}}\enddata{text,270470752}

\enddata{text822, 351216}
\begindata{text822, 357208}
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Message-Id: <sadlxBO0M2YtICXopw@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 11:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 534+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
If-Type-Unsupported: alter
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <YadkvIb0BwwOM2rmwr@transarc.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<0adTPN8B0TlkM4PEF=@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<YadkvIb0BwwOM2rmwr@transarc.com>

\begindata{text,2860488}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 20-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Craig_Everhart@transarc. (4577+0)}


\quotation{Wow, another address-validation request: don't even bother parsing 
the addresses, but just leave 'em alone.  Or parse them in some broader 
syntax, and try to handle the ones you recognize.

}
Yeah, kind of a neat idea for an option.  Whereas most modifications to mswp.c 
are a real nightmare, it should really be quite easy to add an option that 
causes the MS_Validate... call to simply return an "all is well code" all the 
time.

\enddata{text,2860488}

\enddata{text822, 357208}
\begindata{text822, 359547}
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 19:46:22 +0100
From: lovstrand.EuroPARC@Xerox.COM
Message-Id: <9007201846.AA09430@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Patches to cvtold.c and submsg.c

OK, on the suggestion of Nathaniel Borenstein, here comes a patch to
ams/libs/ms/cvtold.c that will convert incoming "From " lines to
"Return-Paths".  As a bonus (but probably not with nsb's blessing ;-),
I've also included a patch to ams/libs/ms/submsg.c that will adhere to
RFC822 and allow user-supplied "From" lines while inserting an
additional "Sender" if necessary.  I also took the liberty of disabling
the requirement of a "Subject".  OK, so sue me, as someone else said
recently...

Cheers,
--Lennart
(Off to Bonny Scotland for half a fortnight)

Prerequisits: AMS patch level 5.  Apply by connecting to ams/libs/ms and
piping the message through patch.

*** cvtold.c~	Wed Nov 22 16:32:32 1989
--- cvtold.c	Fri Jul 20 18:54:56 1990
***************
*** 252,257 ****
--- 252,289 ----
  		AnyWrittenToThisOne = 1;
  		ReadyToStartAgain = 0;
  	    }
+ 	} else if (!AnyWrittenToThisOne && strncmp(buffer, "From ", 5) == 0) {
+ 	    /*
+ 	     *  Andrew makes a bit of a mess out of UNIX envelope sender
+ 	     *  lines ("From " lines), so we'd better change them into
+ 	     *  something useful, like "Return-Path:"'s.
+ 	     *  --Lennart Lovstrand, Rank Xerox EuroPARC, May 1990.
+ 	     *
+ 	     *  The format of a "From " line is:
+ 	     *    "From <sender> <date> [remote from <host>]"
+ 	     *  There is a chance sender will contain spaces (enclosed in
+ 	     *  quotes or escaped by backslash), so we can't just index on
+ 	     *  a space.
+ 	     */
+ 	    char *p;
+ 	    int quoted = FALSE, escaped = FALSE;
+ 
+ 	    for (p = &buffer[5]; *p != '\0'; p++) {
+ 		if (escaped)
+ 		    escaped = FALSE;
+ 		else if (*p == '\\')
+ 		    escaped = TRUE;
+ 		else if (*p == '"')
+ 		    quoted = !quoted;
+ 		else if (*p == ' ')
+ 		    break;
+ 	    }
+ 	    *p = '\0';
+ 	    writeall(wfd, "Return-Path: <", 14);
+ 	    writeall(wfd, &buffer[5], strlen(&buffer[5]));
+ 	    writeall(wfd, ">\n", 2);
+ 	    AnyWrittenToThisOne = TRUE;
+ 	    ReadyToStartAgain = FALSE;
  	} else {
  	    ReadyToStartAgain = (buffer[0] == '\n') ? 1 : 0;
  	    writeall(wfd, buffer, strlen(buffer));

*** submsg.c~	Fri Jan 26 22:14:51 1990
--- submsg.c	Fri Jul 20 19:37:10 1990
***************
*** 200,209 ****
--- 200,217 ----
          }
      }
      else {
+ 	/*
+ 	 *  Wait a minute, they've gotten a bit overboard here -- there
+ 	 *  is nothing wrong with a user-supplied "From" line, it's only
+ 	 *  the authenticity of the "Sender" that has to be protected.
+ 	 *  --Lennart Lovstrand, Rank Xerox EuroPARC, May 1990
+ 	 */
+ #ifdef notdef
          while (Msg->ParsedStuff->HeadBody[HP_FROM]) {
              NonfatalBizarreError("Deleting a user-supplied 'From' header line.");
              DeleteHeader(Msg, HP_FROM);
          }
+ #endif notdef
          while (Msg->ParsedStuff->HeadBody[HP_SENDER]) {
              NonfatalBizarreError("Deleting a user-supplied 'Sender' header line.");
              DeleteHeader(Msg, HP_SENDER);
***************
*** 278,289 ****
            newreceived(ClientProgram), newmid(), arpadate(), MyPrettyAddress);
      }
      else {
!         sprintf(NewHeads, "%sMessage-ID: %s\nDate: %sFrom: %s",
!           newreceived(ClientProgram), newmid(), arpadate(), MyPrettyAddress);
          if (Msg->ParsedStuff->HeadBody[HP_SUBJECT] == NULL) {   /* OK in resend */
              FreeMessage(Msg, TRUE);
              AMS_RETURN_ERRCODE(EMSNOSUBJ, EIN_PARAMCHECK, EVIA_SUBMITMESSAGE);
          }
      }
      AddHeader(Msg, NewHeads);
      if (DeliveryOptions & AMS_SEND_ISRESEND) {
--- 286,313 ----
            newreceived(ClientProgram), newmid(), arpadate(), MyPrettyAddress);
      }
      else {
! 	/*
! 	 *  Insert a authenticated "Sender" if a "From" header already
! 	 *  exists.  Ideally, we ought to first check if the user-supplied
! 	 *  "From" address is semantically the same as the sender, but
! 	 *  it's easier (and safer) to just add a new "Sender".
! 	 *  --Lennart Lovstrand, Rank Xerox EuroPARC, May 1990.
! 	 */
! 	sprintf(NewHeads, "%sMessage-ID: %s\nDate: %s%s: %s",
! 		newreceived(ClientProgram), newmid(), arpadate(),
! 		Msg->ParsedStuff->HeadBody[HP_FROM] ? "Sender" : "From",
! 		MyPrettyAddress);
! 	/*
! 	 *  This is bogus -- there is nothing illegal with a subjectless
! 	 *  message.  (I wish they'd just issued a warning instead)
! 	 *  --Lennart Lovstrand, Rank Xerox EuroPARC, May 1990.
! 	 */
! #ifdef notdef
          if (Msg->ParsedStuff->HeadBody[HP_SUBJECT] == NULL) {   /* OK in resend */
              FreeMessage(Msg, TRUE);
              AMS_RETURN_ERRCODE(EMSNOSUBJ, EIN_PARAMCHECK, EVIA_SUBMITMESSAGE);
          }
+ #endif notdef
      }
      AddHeader(Msg, NewHeads);
      if (DeliveryOptions & AMS_SEND_ISRESEND) {
\enddata{text822, 359547}
\begindata{text822, 365556}
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Message-Id: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 16:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
Enclosure: ---- Enclosure ----
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Meta-X package
In-Reply-To: <EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

Here it is (meta-x) as a shar file:

---- Enclosure ----
#! /bin/sh
# This is a shell archive.  Remove anything before this line, then unpack
# it by saving it into a file and typing "sh file".  To overwrite existing
# files, type "sh file -c".  You can also feed this as standard input via
# unshar, or by typing "sh <file", e.g..  If this archive is complete, you
# will see the following message at the end:
#		"End of shell archive."
# Contents:  Imakefile metax.c metax.ch
# Wrapped by janssen@nora on Fri Jul 20 16:05:40 1990
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb ; export PATH
if test -f 'Imakefile' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then 
  echo shar: Will not clobber existing file \"'Imakefile'\"
else
echo shar: Extracting \"'Imakefile'\" \(248 characters\)
sed "s/^X//" >'Imakefile' <<'END_OF_FILE'
XLOCALINCLUDES	= -I/import/local/andrew/include/atk
X
XDOBJS		=	metax.do
X
XIHFILES		=	metax.ih
X
XDESTDIR		=	/import/local/andrew
X
XNormalObjectRule()
XNormalATKRule()
XDependTarget()
X
XDynamicObject(metax,,$(UTILLIB))
XInstallClassFiles($(DOBJS),$(IHFILES))
END_OF_FILE
if test 248 -ne `wc -c <'Imakefile'`; then
    echo shar: \"'Imakefile'\" unpacked with wrong size!
fi
# end of 'Imakefile'
fi
if test -f 'metax.c' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then 
  echo shar: Will not clobber existing file \"'metax.c'\"
else
echo shar: Extracting \"'metax.c'\" \(2947 characters\)
sed "s/^X//" >'metax.c' <<'END_OF_FILE'
X/*| -*- Mode: C -*-
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| File: 	metax.c
X/*| Created: 	Thu Jun  7 19:07:32 1990
X/*| Author: 	Bill Janssen (janssen@holmes) 
X/*| $Locker$
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| Description: 
X/*|
X/*|   Behaviour code to implement meta-x for Andrew.
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| Copyright 1990 Xerox Corporation
X/*| All Rights Reserved Worldwide.
X/*/
X    static char xerox_copyright[] = "\
X    \
X    Copyright 1990 Xerox Corporation \
X    All Rights Reserved";
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*|  "$Header$"
X/*/
X      static char rcs_id[] = "$Header$";
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*/
X
X#include <class.h>
X
X#include <view.ih>
X#include <proctbl.ih>
X#include <message.ih>
X#include <bind.ih>
X#include <im.ih>
X
X#include "metax.eh"
X
Xstatic char lastCommand[1000];
X
Xstatic void callProcedure (self, key)
X     struct view *self;
X     char key;
X{
X  char buf[1000];
X
X  if (message_AskForString (self, 0 , "M-x ", "",
X			    buf, sizeof(buf)) == -1)
X    {
X      message_DisplayString (self, 0, "");
X      return;
X    }
X
X  CallNamedProcedure (self, buf);
X
X  strcpy (lastCommand, buf);
X}
X 
XCallNamedProcedure (self, procname)
X     struct view *self;
X     char *procname;
X{
X  char buf[1000];
X  struct proctable_Entry *pe;
X  int stat;
X
X /* should lookup synonyms here... */
X
X  pe = proctable_Lookup (procname);
X  if (pe == NULL)
X    {
X      message_DisplayString (self, 0, "No such command.");
X      return;
X    }
X  
X  if (pe->proc != NULL
X      && (pe->module == NULL || (class_Load(pe->module) != NULL)))
X      {
X	if (pe->doc != NULL)
X	  message_DisplayString (self, 0, pe->doc);
X	im_ForceUpdate();
X	stat = (*pe->proc)(self, 0);
X	sprintf (buf, "%s returns %d.", pe->name, stat);
X	message_DisplayString (self, 0, buf);
X      };
X}
X
Xstatic void repeatProcedure (view, key)
X     struct view *view;
X     char key;
X{
X  char buf[1000];
X
X  if (*lastCommand != 0)
X    {
X      if (message_AskForString (view, 0 , "M-x ", lastCommand,
X				buf, sizeof(buf)) == -1)
X	{
X	  message_DisplayString (view, 0, "");
X	  return;
X	}
X      
X      CallNamedProcedure (view, buf);
X    }
X  else
X    message_DisplayString (view, 0, "No previous Meta-X command.");
X}
X
Xboolean metax__InitializeClass(classID)
X     struct classheader *classID;
X{
X  static struct bind_Description fns[] = {
X    {"view-call-named-procedure", "\033x", 0, NULL, 0, 0,
callProcedure, "Call the procedure named as an argument", "metax" },
X    {"view-repeat-named-procedure", "\030\033", 0, NULL, 0, 0,
repeatProcedure, "Call the procedure named as an argument", "metax" },
X    NULL };
X  struct classinfo *viewClassinfo;
X
X  viewClassinfo = class_Load("view");
X  if (viewClassinfo != NULL) {
X    bind_BindList(fns, NULL, NULL, viewClassinfo);
X    return TRUE;
X  }
X  else
X    return FALSE;
X}
X
END_OF_FILE
if test 2947 -ne `wc -c <'metax.c'`; then
    echo shar: \"'metax.c'\" unpacked with wrong size!
fi
# end of 'metax.c'
fi
if test -f 'metax.ch' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then 
  echo shar: Will not clobber existing file \"'metax.ch'\"
else
echo shar: Extracting \"'metax.ch'\" \(717 characters\)
sed "s/^X//" >'metax.ch' <<'END_OF_FILE'
X/*| -*- Mode: C -*-
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| File: 	metax.ch
X/*| Created: 	Thu Jun  7 19:06:27 1990
X/*| Author: 	Bill Janssen (janssen@holmes) 
X/*| $Locker$
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| Description: 
X/*|
X/*|   Package declaration for meta-x code.
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*| Copyright 1990 Xerox Corporation
X/*| All Rights Reserved Worldwide.
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*|
X/*|  "$Header$"
X/*|
X/*|------------------------------------------------------------
X/*/
X
Xpackage metax {
X
X classprocedures:
X  InitializeClass() returns boolean;
X};
END_OF_FILE
if test 717 -ne `wc -c <'metax.ch'`; then
    echo shar: \"'metax.ch'\" unpacked with wrong size!
fi
# end of 'metax.ch'
fi
echo shar: End of shell archive.
exit 0

---- Enclosure ----
\enddata{text822, 365556}
\begindata{text822, 372888}
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	for info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu (info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu)
	(contact usenet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU if you have questions)
Date: 20 Jul 90 22:43:44 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Message-Id: <3699@auspex.auspex.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>I wish tm wouldn't scroll 2/3 of the window each time the caret goes
>below the bottom of the screen.  [Argh!]

I'll drink to that, at least to the extent that it should scroll up one
line for every new line of output that arrives at the bottom of the
screen.

I looked into this briefly; it appears the 2/3-screen scrolling is done
by "textv".  Is there any way "tmv" could override this?  (The
2/3-screen should perhaps be tunable in any case, as it is in Unipress
EMACS - maybe GNU EMACS as well, dunno.)

It might also be nice if "tmv" could pause when an entire screenful of
output had come out.  The problem is figuring out when it should (i.e.,
when the tty is being treated as a sequential file) and shouldn't (i.e.,
when some full-screen program is running) - basing it on cooked vs.
uncooked mode on the tty means it will never pause when you're e.g.
rlogged into or telnetted into another machine; this is a problem with
the similar "pause every screenful" option in the SunView "shelltool".
\enddata{text822, 372888}
\begindata{text822, 375195}
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Message-Id: <IaduG1EB0KGW41focm@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 17:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
In-Reply-To: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
 	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

Whoops.  I notice the Imakefile defines LOCALINCLUDES.  Just remove that
line, it isn't needed.

Bill
\enddata{text822, 375195}
\begindata{text822, 376930}
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 90 12:01:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Wayne Richardson  <wdr@rchland.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Reply-To: <wdr@ibm.com>
Subject: Fwd: Dear Saint Andrew...
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<gadSa6k91E475=QI5Z@rchland.ibm.com>

How could the following have happened??  I simply did a resend (of
something that I had previously sent to info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu) to
ro8j@andrew.cmu.edu.

-wr

---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

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Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>


Excerpts from ext.cmu.info-andrew: 18-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Bill Janssen@RCHGATE.rch (2504+0)

>>> I wish there were indications in the margin about what kind of style
>>> [etc] the current para was.

>> Do you know about ESC-s?  If not, go into a region of text with styles
>> and try typing it.

> I read this a bit differently.  Have you ever used InterLeaf WPS?  They
> have a strip to the side of the page that reflects the paragraph type.


I agree the strip would be really nice, but I survive with the following
line in my .ezinit, which gives me a popup menu item called Toggle
Expose Styles:

addmenu textview-toggle-expose-styles "File,Toggle Expose Styles~90"
textview

-wr

\enddata{text822, 376930}
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Date: 21 Jul 90 17:38:43 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
Message-Id: <3701@auspex.auspex.com>
References: <0adTPN8B0TlkM4PEF=@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>, <4adl8zi00as90GIEh_@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>True, this may be a somewhat simplistic comparison - but considering how
>different a piece of text can look if it's in a 3 inch wide window frm
>how it looks in a 12 inch wide window - how would you support tabs
>consistantly in both??

I don't think this is an issue of the monitor size so much as it's an
issue of the philosophy of the underlying editor; if editors such as
Interleaf, Frame, etc. - which were all originally done for big-screen
workstations - support tabs, I suspect they support them more like other
word processing editors do.

I think most word processing editors do *not* set the margins based on
the size of the window; the "page width" is fixed, and if you widen the
window, it probably just leaves more white space.  Andrew is different,
in that the margins move if you change the width of the window.  I don't
think one can ascribe the philosophy of the other editors to the size of
the screen for which they were originally developed....
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 90 08:35:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
In-Reply-To: <3701@auspex.auspex.com>
References: <0adTPN8B0TlkM4PEF=@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>, <4adl8zi00as90GIEh_@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<3701@auspex.auspex.com>

Guy's right about philosophy.  In the very earliest days of Andrew,
there was a strong "anti-paper" bias -- that's when they traded the
acronym WYSIWYG for WYSLRN (What You See Looks Real Neat).  The fact
that the screen was always paramount and paper was an afterthought, and
that objects were supposed to be very dynamic in their response to their
window size, is probably the underlying cause of Andrew's historical
problems with tabs & printing.  Not that it excuses anything, but it
does help to explain it.
\enddata{text822, 384911}
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 90 08:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Bob Glickstein <bobg+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Lovstrand patch
Cc: info-andrew-bugs+@andrew.cmu.edu

I don't know what you want to do with the REST of Lovstrand's new patch
on info-andrew, but the bit that deals with the UNIX "From" lines is a
very good thing to pick up; you don't see the problems at CMU, but when
you're running AMS with sendmail, there is a bug (which I reported
months ago) that makes it impossible to re-send multimedia mail and
preserve the  multimedia formatting.  Lovstrand's patch should fix the
bug.  

Personally, I'd recommend against the part of his patch that permits
"no-subject" messages, and have no strong feelings about the "sender"
issue, but these are obviously policy decisions that are up to you
guys... -- NB
\enddata{text822, 386902}
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 90 09:55:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anthony Edwards <tobeye@northstar.dartmouth.edu>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...

\begindata{text,269636312}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 19-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (540+0)}


\quotation{My (possibly flawed) recollection is that this is not documented or 
heavily promoted because it is sometimes buggy in disturbing ways.  But it is 
very useful, and does seem to work most of the time...

}
I, too, use this undocumented feature.  I find it extremely useful when 
working on a document with a lot of formatting.  Yeah, it's quirky sometimes, 
but it has never crashed on me.  Its utility outweighs its quirks.


I was surprised that the EZ precursor, EditText, had this feature but EZ did 
not.  When EZ first came out, my first reaction was to go into the source code 
and look for it.  I haven't complained since because it was there, albeit 
undocumented.


I cast my vote for the ITC to document the feature, perhaps with a caveat.


   - \underline{Anthony}

\enddata{text,269636312}

\enddata{text822, 388819}
\begindata{text822, 392037}
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 1990 13:01:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: EnterNotify and Leave Notify Mouse Events?
In-Reply-To: <Yaa91360z7FZM2FVEX@informatics.noname>
References: <Yaa91360z7FZM2FVEX@informatics.noname>

\begindata{text,269923380}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 9-Jul-90 EnterNotify and Leave Notif.. 
Scott Hassan@informatics (470+0)}


\quotation{Is there anyway in the Andrew Toolkit for an view object to track 
the pointers movements when entering and leaving its view rectangle.  

}
\quotation{I would like the object to update the screen when the mouse enters. 
 Is there any hope?  Do \typewriter{view_handlers} have anything to do with 
it? 

}
I don't know if anybody has responded to this in private so I'll give it a go.


The answer is: No.  Sorry.  It could theoretically be added but it would only 
work for X and we would like to be consistent across different window 
managers.


Gary Keim

ATK Group



\enddata{text,269923380}

\enddata{text822, 392037}
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,269623200}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 17-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint 
Andrew... Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (11539+0)}



\quotation{\quotation{I wish there was support for setting \bold{tab stops}! 
 [What no tabs??!  You must be joking!]

}}
\quotation{No version of any Andrew toolkit has ever supported tabs properly. 
 It's a tradition -- that's what the letters really stand for:  All Tabs 
Killed.

}

edittext, the predecessor to ez, implemented tabs;  tab stops could be set 
with the equivalent of lookz

\enddata{text,269623200}

\enddata{text822, 394053}
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Message-ID: <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 1990 17:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
In-Reply-To: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,269623200}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
The meta-X facility recently posted here will let you call any proctable 
function, but has some problems:


	There is no provision for passing an argument to the function.


	There is no completion of the name while typing it in.


I can't offer a solution to the second problem, though someone could easily 
write a completion package that inspected that proctable.


To pass arguments you can utilize Ness.  I do this by adding to my .atkinit 
the line


	addkey ness-dostmt  \\e\\e  view  


Then when I type ESC-ESC (or meta-ESC, I suppose) it prompts for Ness 
statements.  Any proctable function can be called and arguments passed.  For 
instance, to classify a message into a folder (am operation I don't have in my 
messages menu) I can type ESC-ESC and give the command:


	messages_classify_by_name(currentinset, "foldername")


Note that the dashes in the proctable names become underlines in Ness and that 
the first argument should be currentinset because that is expected by the 
proctable function.


For more information see section 5 of /usr/andrew/doc/atk/ness/nessuser.doc.


Have fun,

Fred Hansen\
\enddata{text,269623200}

\enddata{text822, 395959}
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Date: 24 Jul 90 01:00:39 GMT
From: shelby!csli!cwitty@decwrl.dec.com  (Carl Witty)
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University
Subject: Can't get dynamic linking to work on sun4's
Message-Id: <14596@csli.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

I'm trying to get andrew to compile here, and I seem to be having a
problem with dynamic loading in atk--that is, ez works fine, but help
and zip don't.  The symptoms are a core dump from an illegal
instruction. I don't have the version of gdb mentioned that
understands about dynamic loading (where can I get it?); without that,
I can't tell too much about the problem.  trace(1) shows runapp
loading in the proper object files, and a backtrace from the core dump
shows several stack frames in the 0xff... range that seem to be from a
dynamically loaded module--they're after etext, so it seems like the
load is at least partially working.

The only unusual things about our setup are that we're
running AFS 3.0 and we're trying to build just about everything.

Has anybody seen this before?  Does anybody have any ideas for
debugging it?

Sun 4/110, SunOS 4.0.3, andrew patchlevel 5

I fixed two Imakefiles so that they required librauth.a only when
AFS30_ENV was not defined, and changed the Imakefile in
.../atk/console/cmd to undefine AFS_ENV, since libcont.a didn't come
with AFS 3.0; I don't think either of these changes could have caused
this problem.

A backtrace from a core dump from help follows:
(gdb) run
Starting program: /afs/ir.stanford.edu/sun4_40/local/andrew/bin/help
Starting help (Version 7.2, ATK 14.6); please wait...

Program received signal 4, Illegal instruction
0x102424 in ?? ()
(gdb) where
#0  0x102424 in ?? ()
#1  0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#2  0xff714 in ?? ()
#3  0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#4  0xff714 in ?? ()
#5  0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#6  0xff714 in ?? ()
#7  0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#8  0xff714 in ?? ()
#9  0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#10 0xff714 in ?? ()
#11 0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#12 0xff714 in ?? ()
#13 0xff5f4 in ?? ()
#14 0xff390 in ?? ()
#15 0xfd3d4 in ?? ()
#16 0xfde64 in ?? ()
#17 0x2ad8 in main (...) (...)

The site.mcr and site.h that I used are as follows:
site.mcr:
/* Empty site.mcr file.  Use this file to hold all */
/* your site's changes to allsys.mcr and system.mcr. */


#ifdef AFS_ENV
/* AFSBASEDIR should point to the top of an AFS installation. */
/* Thus, $(AFSBASEDIR)/lib/afs $(AFSBASEDIR)/include/afs should both exist. */
/* for historical reasons the default is set to /usr/andy; */
/* if you need to change this setting, you can do so in site.h . */
        AFSBASEDIR = /usr/afsws
#endif /* AFS_ENV */

/* XUTILDIR is for programs that have been installed in some place other */
/* than the standard location - the ITC uses it for 'makedepend' and 'imake' */
        XUTILDIR = /usr/bin/X11

/* For attempting to debug andrew on sun4's: */
       CDEBUGFLAGS = -g

/* Sparc versions of /bin/sh core dump during the build */
       SHELL = /bin/bash

site.h:
/* Empty site.h file.  Use this file to hold all */
/* your site's changes to allsys.h and system.h. */

/* Defined if building for use with the Andrew File System (Vice) */
#define AFS_ENV	1

/* Defined if you have version 3.0 of the Andrew File System, including
  the protection server */
#define AFS30_ENV 1

/* Defined if building ODA and the ODA Translators */
#define ODA_ENV 1

/* Defined if you want to build the Andrew Message System (AMS) */
#define AMS_ENV	1

/* Defined if building code to deal with AMDS (AMS Delivery System) anywhere */
#define AMS_DELIVERY_ENV	1

/* Defined if we expect to run AMDS (AMS Delivery System) at this site.  This option affects only the default option values in mail system configuration, in the files andrew/overhead/util/lib/svcconf.c and andrew/overhead/mail/lib/mailconf.c . */
#define RUN_AMDS_ENV	1

/* Defined for building with the White Pages */
#define WHITEPAGES_ENV	1

/* Defined if building for use with Snap (remote messageservers) */
#define SNAP_ENV    1

/* Defined if you are using the Andrew/CMU printing software */
#define ANDREW_PRINTING_ENV 1

/* Software Levels: (Set to highest number you want to build) */
/* ############ FIX COMMENTS HERE ############ */
#define LEVEL_ENV 4
#define MK_BLD_BLKS	1
#define MK_BASIC_UTILS	1
#define MK_BASIC_INSETS	1
#define MK_HELP		1
#define MK_TEXT_EXT	1
#define MK_AUTHORING	1
#define MK_AUX_UTILS	1
#define MK_AUX_INSETS	1
#define MK_EXAMPLES	1

/* Defined if you have ditroff */
#undef DITROFF_ENV

/* Define this if you want to build the contributed software
   (in ./contrib/*). */
/* #define CONTRIB_ENV 1 */

/* Defined if you want to use links when installing the system */
#undef LINKINSTALL_ENV

/* Defined to be the default ``ANDREWDIR'' value, where users will see */
/* the final result of the Andrew installation. */
#undef	DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV
#define DEFAULT_ANDREWDIR_ENV /afs/ir.stanford.edu/@sys/local/andrew

Carl Witty
cwitty@cs.stanford.edu
\enddata{text822, 398539}
\begindata{text822, 404449}
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Date: 24 Jul 90 05:01:59 GMT
From: uvaarpa!murdoch!hudson.acc.Virginia.EDU!cyj9h@mcnc.org  (chuck j. boyeeee!)
Organization: University of Virginia
Subject: Need Some Info ...
Message-Id: <1990Jul24.050159.22007@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <0adTPN8B0TlkM4PEF=@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>, <YadkvIb0BwwOM2rmwr@transarc.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


Hi there!

I've been hearing about this andrew stuff, but what exactly
is it?  Is it a document preparation package?  Is it a mailer?
Can it toast bread?  Where can you get it? Is is commercial or PD?


Thanks!

-charles

"boy, you sure ask lot of questions for someone from charlottesville."
\enddata{text822, 404449}
\begindata{text822, 406137}
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Date: 23 Jul 90 22:35:27 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: EnterNotify and Leave Notify Mouse Events?
Message-Id: <104216@convex.convex.com>
References: <Yaa91360z7FZM2FVEX@informatics.noname>, <0aemq1K00VsWA0X0xd@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>The answer is: No.  Sorry.  It could theoretically be added but it would
>only work for X and we would like to be consistent across different
>window managers.

I know that one of the aims of the whole Andrew/BE2/ATK idea was to be
window-system independent, but in reality is there an implementation for
any systems other than X and the increasingly more defunct "wm"?


--
\enddata{text822, 406137}
\begindata{text822, 407900}
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Message-ID: <Maf6ayu00VsWI0XXtd@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 1990 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: EnterNotify and Leave Notify Mouse Events?
In-Reply-To: <104216@convex.convex.com>
References: <Yaa91360z7FZM2FVEX@informatics.noname>, <0aemq1K00VsWA0X0xd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<104216@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,269878772}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 23-Jul-90 Re: EnterNotify and Leave N.. 
Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (376)}


\quotation{I know that one of the aims of the whole Andrew/BE2/ATK idea was to 
be

}\quotation{window-system independent, but in reality is there an 
implementation for

}\quotation{any systems other than X and the increasingly more defunct "wm"?

}
There is currently a port going for OS/2 PresentationManager.  Don't know of 
it's status.

\enddata{text,269878772}

\enddata{text822, 407900}
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          Tue, 24 Jul 90 10:35:16 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <caf6eom0z7FZMdalA2@informatics.noname>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 90 10:35:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Scott Hassan <hassan@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 557+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Draw from an offscreen bitmap?

\begindata{text,2613416}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}


We are having problems with BitBlt working from an offscreen view.  We were 
able to get it to work with an onscreen rasterview but that doesn't help us 
much.  Does a source view have to be part of the view tree in order for BitBlt 
to work properly?


We would like to be able to load a raster and then paint it to a view without 
creating a sub-view(rasterview).


				Thanks,


				Scott Hassan

				\smaller{hassan@informatics.wustl.edu

				Medical Informatics

				Department of Internal Medicine

				Washington University

				St. Louis, MO   63130

				(314) 362-3422

}\enddata{text,2613416}

\enddata{text822, 409727}
\begindata{text822, 412763}
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Message-ID: <waf6wbe00VsQIHQUo7@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 1990 11:54:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Andrew Ryan <rr2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
In-Reply-To: <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <cacr7_YB0TlkM0uVlE@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<MacrzhG0M2YtM75=Zi@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,269960556}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I have a meta-x package which will be in the contrib dir for patch 7,  if you 
don't want to wait, I'll post it in a few days to a week.


This meta-x package features completion and argument passing, and even help in 
the style of the filename completion used by ez.


-Rob Ryan

Student Programmer, ITC

Disclaimer: as evidenced by its placement in contrib the ITC makes no promises 
of support for this package.

\enddata{text,269960556}

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Date: 24 Jul 90 15:18:57 GMT
From: usc!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!predator.austin.ibm.com!jmr@ucsd.edu
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin
Subject: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
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ATK has been around for some time.  It has many of the features that 
people want in a computing environment.  Can anyone comment on why
it is not more widely used and/or accepted?

--
Jim Rowan 	(My ravings are my own, and are no fault of my employer.)
		cs.utexas.edu!ibmchs!jrowan 
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X-Andrew-Authenticated-As: 469;andrew.cmu.edu;Craig F. Everhart
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
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My $.02.


It's a big pill to swallow; it's hard to move to ATK piecemeal.


It currently requires dynamic loading before it will work on an architecture.


It requires an on-site wizard to keep it working.


		Craig

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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 1990 13:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Miles Bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>
References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>
Blat: Foop

Because it isn't being promoted as a standard by some huge wacko group of
clueless business computer users.

[note that its merits, whatever they may be, have nothing to do with the
 likelihood of being selected by the above process]

-Miles
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From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
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I've been working with Andrew for a couple of years now, outside the ITC and 
CMU environment, and I've come up with one big reason.  While ATK is a very 
broad and comprehensive environment, and the best thing I've seen in terms of 
an X11/Unix environment (which excludes things like Cedar, SmallTalk, the 
Macintosh, and Interlisp), it is too shallow.  By this I mean that ordinary 
users (outside the CMU environment) keep tripping over things in ATK that make 
them turn to other tools.  For example:


- almost no one around here uses \italic{typescript}, the official ATK tool 
for running shells in, because it does not support rlogin or curses-oriented 
programs.  There is no officially supported terminal emulator program in ATK. 
 \italic{tm}, the contrib terminal emulator, does not emulate a vt100, the way 
that \italic{xterm} does, and it loses the ability to use cut/paste etc., when 
being used by a curses program.  (Which makes some sense, but it annoys people 
who are rlog'ed in to some other machine, and want to cut and paste the way 
they do with an rlog'ed in xterm.)  Most people here use \italic{xterm} 
instead of \italic{typescript} or \italic{tm}, just because of the rlogin 
problem.


- when the R4 \italic{help} tool came out, it core-dumped almost every time a 
man page was requested.  After having that happen to them 3 or 4 times, most 
pioneers around here turned to \italic{xman} instead, and have never turned 
back.  This has the added effect of making the documentation on ATK harder for 
them to read, since they are not used to \italic{help}.  I myself have `man' 
aliased to `\example{/bin/man $* | col -b | pipescript}'.  I really enjoyed 
help under R3, but it got too Byzantine and unpredictable under R4.


- \italic{textview} is a fairly reasonable text editor.  Unfortunately, it 
does not support undo, which in modern emacs-style text editors is a must.  In 
general around here, most people need two editors, a code editor and a 
document editor.  \italic{ez} is sort of both, but not really good enough at 
either to beat out GNU Emacs for the code editing job (no undo, hard to 
share/change/customize modes, what's the analogue of M-x recover-file?), and 
FrameMaker or Publisher for the document job (no virtual-paper mode).  I use 
GNU Emacs for code, \italic{ez} for documents.


- Most people would like to have a good drawing editor on the Sun -- a simple 
MacDraw clone.  ATK provides \italic{zip}, which is an extremely idiosyncratic 
drawing editor (apparently actually designed to support the Great American 
History Machine, not as a drawing editor).  \italic{zip} was plagued by 
unfortunated interactions with the R3 and early R4 X servers, which would 
cause the server to core-dump when various standard \italic{zip} demos were 
performed.  Which made one's whole world disappear.  People learned early on 
not to use \italic{zip}.  Nowadays, \italic{zip} still has bugs, such as not 
wrapping itself in an ATK datastream when invoked at the top level, and having 
an extremely bad menu layout.  Most people here go to the Mac to produce 
figures, or use the graphics editor in FrameMaker.


- \italic{table}, the ATK spreadsheet, was eagerly adopted by some people 
here.  After some early crashes due to impossible-to-reproduce malloc bugs 
(apparently a bad pointer being passed to realloc), they learned to steer 
clear of it.  Now they use a spreadsheet on a Mac, or use the \italic{sc} 
public domain curses-oriented spreadsheet in an \italic{xterm}.


- printing for all of ATK is very delicate.  It requires that one have AT&T 
\italic{ditroff}, and Adobe's \italic{transcript} package.  Most people who 
don't have these also have trouble getting money to purchase them for this 
experimental ATK system.


- no new user appreciates ATK menus.


So if you look at what might be considered a ``full-Andrew'' environment 
(\italic{console}, \italic{messages}, \italic{typescript}, \italic{help}, 
\italic{ez-textview-zip-raster-table}), the only things that really make the 
grade are \italic{console} and \italic{messages}.  Of course, \italic{messages} 
uses umpty-zillion inodes (every message in a separate file) and hides your 
mail in files that are hard to run \italic{grep} on, and \italic{console} 
causes some of our Sun-4/330's to lock up in some low level assembly language 
routine.  But even so they are judged more of a win than a nuisance.  A 
typical X screen around here might have:  messages, console, one or two GNU 
Emacs', a FrameMaker control strip, one or two xterms, an xbiff, and an xman. 
 Some people use rmail in GNU Emacs instead of messages.  There is no good way 
to read USENET news with ATK, so you have to run \italic{xrn} or Emacs 
\italic{gnus} or \italic{rn} in an \italic{xterm} (\italic{tm} doesn't work 
with it too well).  By the way, I have set up \italic{messages} to read news 
and discontinued it after a month.  It uses unbelievable amounts of CPU to run 
\italic{CUI} scripts to do the indexing, and the interface through messages is 
clumsy for certain operations (posting a followup, for example).


Now, if you're just going to run \italic{messages} and \italic{console}, ATK 
requires a lot of disk and a lot of intellectual effort, to get everything 
running.  Maybe too much, for the payback.


Bill



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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 90 18:03:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nicholas John Williams <njw@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Lost styles when cutting&pasting

I recently came across a bug with cutting and pasting inside of ez:

A piece of text in one file contains characters from the `symbola' font
(i.e. the characters are in the symbola style). This piece of text is
selected and the `copy' operation performed. The text is then pasted
into a new file.  The new file now contains the pasted text surrounded
in the symbola environment, but the style called `symbola' is not
defined correctly in the new file - its definition is blank.  This means
that the characters in that style will not be seen correctly, and the
only way to get around this once the text has been pasted, is to edit
the file with vi or something and fill in the correct definition of
symbola.

I should think that this would happen with any style pasted into a file
which does not use a template defining that style (for example, pasting
a "syntax example" from a help file into a default ez file produces the
same effect).

Has anybody out there got an idea of the best way to fix this problem? I
would guess it to be something to do with changing the paste code so it
ensures the new stylesheet has all the neccessary styles.

Nick Williams.
------------------
njw@athena.mit.edu
njw@doc.imperial.ac.uk
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From: ibmchs!auschs!lynn.austin.ibm.com!tlwells@cs.utexas.edu (Tracy Wells)
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To: @auschs:ibmchs!cs.utexas.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!info-andrew
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?

I've wondered the same thing many times.  I've also wondered about X11
and about AFS.  What is it about those 2 "products" that has caused 
them to be embraced across the industry (as much as anything gets 
embraced in the Unix world)?  What was done differently for those 2
products?  Any insights from MIT about X11?  How about from Transarc
about AFS?

  Tracy Wells
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
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References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>,
	<8af8ZNH0BwwOANc1hQ@transarc.com>

\begindata{text,3110520}
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 24-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Craig_Everhart@transarc. (213+0)}


\quotation{It's a big pill to swallow; it's hard to move to ATK piecemeal.

}
\quotation{It currently requires dynamic loading before it will work on an 
architecture.

}
\quotation{It requires an on-site wizard to keep it working.

}
All true, and I'd add 2 more:


-- It isn't supported by any vendors or consortia.


-- It's "reinvent the world" approach means that there are many places where 
you could imagine it being compatible with something else, but it isn't. 
 Notably, it isn't compatible with any other mail system database formats, or 
with any other multimedia document formats (such as they are).  I guess this 
is really just a more detailed version of Craig's "it's a big pill" answer, 
but lack of compatibility deserves special mention.  -- Nathaniel

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From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: EnterNotify and Leave Notify Mouse Events?
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References: <Yaa91360z7FZM2FVEX@informatics.noname>, <0aemq1K00VsWA0X0xd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<104216@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,3110520}
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 23-Jul-90 Re: 
EnterNotify and Leave N.. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (377)}


\quotation{I know that one of the aims of the whole Andrew/BE2/ATK idea was to 
be

}\quotation{window-system independent, but in reality is there an 
implementation for

}\quotation{any systems other than X and the increasingly more defunct "wm"?

}
Supported implementation?  No.  Halfway functional?  Yes, sort of.  People 
have played with putting ATK on NextStep and on OS/2 PM.  Here at Bellcore, 
we're playing (part time) with getting it to run on the MGR window system, 
which is still widely used at Bellcore.  So the answer is, average mortals 
can't use ATK on anything but X, but occasional people can do so, and the 
ability to port it to future window systems still looks like an advantage to 
those of us who retain reservations about X11.


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 11:42:14 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Hans v. Kleist-Retzow" <hans@ta.olivetti.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Andrew Documentation
Cc: "Hans v. Kleist-Retzow" <hans@mozart.ta.olivetti.com>
References: <IafKHEj0BW42NdVER9@mozart.ta.olivetti.com>

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In the new Andrew version 3 I am looking for all the documentations which 
where included in the previous release. There were e.g. 

\indent{-\indent{A Guide to \bold{Andrew},

}}\indent{- \indent{The Andrew System

}}\indent{\indent{Programmer's Guide to the Andrew Toolkit}

- etc.


}Many of them were postscript files, which included some images and nice 
formatting.


Were are they?


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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 08:58:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>,
	<Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,2677344}
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 24-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Bill Janssen@parc.xerox. (4883+0)}


\quotation{- when the R4 \italic{help} tool came out, it core-dumped almost 
every time a man page was requested.  After having that happen to them 3 or 4 
times, most pioneers around here turned to \italic{xman} instead, and have 
never turned back.  This has the added effect of making the documentation on 
ATK harder for them to read, since they are not used to \italic{help}.  I 
myself have `man' aliased to `\example{/bin/man $* | col -b | pipescript}'.  I 
really enjoyed help under R3, but it got too Byzantine and unpredictable under 
R4.

}
Yeah, that was bad.  It has gotten reliable again with later patches, but I 
can understand your giving up.


\quotation{- no new user appreciates ATK menus.

}
Well, that may be true if you define "new user" to mean "someone who is used 
to Motif (or Macintosh, or whatever) menus and doesn't want to learn something 
new.  But the ITC did a lot of real testing of what I consider "new users" -- 
people without preconceptions -- and that's how the ATK menus were chosen.  So 
while I personally think that ATK menus should be changed to match Motif 
menus, I think so because the latter are becoming standard, not because 
they're intrinsically easier to use -- I still suspect that the truth is the 
opposite.


Most of your other comments ring true to me.    -- Nathaniel

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Date: 25 Jul 90 14:05:36 GMT
From: usc!bbn.com!diamond.bbn.com!tcrowley@ucsd.edu  (Terry Crowley)
Organization: BBN Laboratories Incorporated, Cambridge, MA
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


I've heard this argument for years that the reason Andrew doesn't do
tabs is because of the problems variable-width windows introduce.

I think the argument's kind of a crock.  There's an easily defined
behavior for what to do with tabs no matter what your linewidth is.
Word processor's have to deal with this because of the ability to
mix tabs and adjustments to the left and right margins and overall
page width.

Granted, tabs are kind of a pain (I speak from experience, having
implemented them in Slate (nee Diamond)), but variable size windows
don't introduce any insurmountable difficulties.

By the way, Slate handles the standard set of left justified,
right justified, centered, and decimal tabs, as well as doing
the "right thing" with tabs whether you're dealing with left-to-right
or right-to-left languages.

Terry Crowley
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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 1990 11:01:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ayami Ogura <ao06+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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    hans@TA.OLIVETTI.COM ("Hans v. Kleist-Retzow")
Subject: Re: Andrew Documentation
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	<8afKZq30BW42JdVFEy@mozart.ta.olivetti.com>

\begindata{text,270252948}
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The "Guide to Andrew"  and the "Programmer's Guide to the Andrew ToolKit" no 
longer exist -- the documentation has become quite large and instead of one 
user guide (which was written for the CMU site only) and a two-volume 
programmer's guide, each class or application has been documented in a 
separate .doc or .help file and stored with the code for that 
class/application in the source directories.  General information and 
documents on ATK can be found in the atk source directory /doc.


At the present time, we are working on scripts using datacat that will group 
and organize all the files and print/store them as volumes for easier access. 
 When the scripts are ready, we hope to release them as a patch. 


_____________________________________


Ayami Ogura

Information Technology Center

Carnegie Mellon University

(412) 268-6798

INET:  ao06+@andrew.cmu.edu

BITNET:  ao06+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb

UUCP:  ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ao06+

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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 12:23:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Scott Hassan <hassan@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Drawing from an offscreen bitmap?

\begindata{text,2609968}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}


We are having problems with BitBlt working from an offscreen view.  We were 
able to get it to work with an onscreen rasterview but that doesn't help us 
much.  Does a source view have to be part of the view tree in order for BitBlt 
to work properly?


We would like to be able to load a raster and then paint it to a view without 
creating a sub-view(rasterview).


				Thanks,


				Scott Hassan

				\smaller{hassan@informatics.wustl.edu

				Medical Informatics

				Department of Internal Medicine

				Washington University

				St. Louis, MO   63130

				(314) 362-3422

}\enddata{text,2609968}

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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: C C Hayden <cch@mtgzx.att.com>
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Subject: Re: Andrew Documentation

\begindata{text,2808472}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
The old manual by Neuwirth and Ogura (Volume II) is far superior to the 
current documentation being distributed by the ITC.  I am glad I did not 
discard my old reference manual, because it is impossible to find anything in 
the new manuals (the pages are not numbered).  Also, most of what I need to 
know is not there and there are "no short-term plans for completing" the 
documents.  Much of this material WAS in the previous reference manual, which 
WAS numbered.  


Andrew cannot become more widespread without an active community of people 
contributing useful software, and that cannot happen until there is adequate 
documentation.  I consider the example-based exposition followed by N&O 
(Volume I) and by Borenstein to be worse than nothing, because it teaches you 
bad habbits with respect to software reuse in an object-oriented system.  At 
least N&O (Volume II) was neutral -- just the facts (mostly).  This is another 
area in which Andrew needs serious attention.


\bold{\bigger{Charles Hayden  cch@mtgzx.att.com}}

Bell Labs   MT 3G-408

200 Laurel Ave, Middletown, NJ 07748

(201) 957-5558

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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: HELP! Building Andrew/AMS on Sparc SunOS 4.1
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 10:54:46 PDT
From: Michael Urban <urban%moose@rand.org>

One reason that Andrew has not taken over the world is that
it a bit too much to deal with on a casual basis.  You either
are very comfortable with the world of `class' and `runapp',
or else you are all at sea.

A case in point: I am trying to build Andrew and (especially)
AMS/Messages on a SPARC machine running SunOS 4.1.  The results
are not encouraging.  `messages' coredumps during initialization
(~Initializing Internal Message Server...").  A core dump from
runapp is a mysterious thing, and I have no idea to find out
just where it died.  VUI also coredumps with a segmentation
violation when I select the "Folder" option.  Here is the
stack backtrace from adb:

 _BuildPrivateSubscriptionMap(0x0,0xb6218,0x0,0x1d,0xf7ffc89d,0x0) + c8
 _MS_NameSubscriptionMapFile(0xb6204,0xb6218,0x0,0x0,0xd61b0,0x2f) + 408
 _GenMapFileName(0x0,0x1,0xf7ffea04,0xf7ffee0c,0x0,0xc22c8) + 1f8
 _LoadOneDirPage(0x0,0x0,0xffffffff,0x0,0xd9dd0,0xf7ffee70) + f0
 _InitDirData(0xf7fff230,0xf7fff227,0x1,0x0,0x1,0x0) + 184
 _InitDirPanel(0xf7fff230,0xf7fff227,0x1,0x0,0x1,0x0) + 18
 _Dir_Panel(0x0,0x0,0x1,0x0,0x0,0xf7fff230) + 84
 _vuimain(0x1,0x0,0x0,0x0,0x0,0x0) + 238

Our sources are patched to level 5.  I would be grateful for any
help.

	Mike

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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 16:21:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Tabs
Cc: njw@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

I can keep my silence no longer.

Fred Hansen mentioned that EditText, the precursor to Andrew had tabs.
What he did not mention is that there has, historically, seemed to be
code sharing between ATK and the older versions.

Nick Williams and I have been going through style.c and various parts of
the text object.  We've come across something very interesting:  TAB
SUPPORT. It's there, but was never finished.  From our preliminary
research, it shouldn't be too hard to finish it.

Does anyone remember way, way back in the past, the code was completely
supported in style.c, but never connected through text?  Was it a memory
hog?  A time hog?  Dropped due to lack of time?

We plan to find out....

You will CERTAINLY hear of our results.  Does anyone else want to play too?

-wdc
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\begindata{text,269907036}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Many comments have recently been posted to why tabs have never made it into 
ATK in a reasonable fashion.  Although I will admit that I may have missed 
some of the posts, I  have yet to see anything close to the correct reason.


The reason that tabs are difficult is due to the inconsistency of widths 
between screen and printer fonts.  In the non-WYSIWYG world of ATK we did 
indeed want text to look reasonable on the screen as well as on the printer. 
 To do this we set text on the screen using the screen fonts and set text on 
the printer using printer fonts.  This raises the problem that if you set 2 
tab stops (say at 1 and 2 inches) and on the screen you type text that gets 
you just past the first tab stop, hitting a tab will take you to the second 
tab stop.  Unfortunately since printer widths are normally slightly smaller 
than the corresponding screen widths you will probably find out that on the 
printer the fist piece of text will leave you under 1 inch and the tab will 
take you to the first tab stop.  This tends to surprise users (not to imply 
that our current scheme doesn't surprise them - but we have made no attempt to 
claim that tabs work).  If others have a solution to this problem I am very 
interested in hearing it (By the way one solution to this problem is to put 
the non-WYSIWYG flavor of ATK's text object but I don't really believe that is 
the correct answer).


There are other solutions to this tab problem that changes what the notion of 
a tab is.  The Edittext solution to tab stops (alluded to in an earlier 
message) was one of those.  If I remember it correctly typing a tab took you 
to first tab stop no matter where current position was.  If it caused you to 
move backwards then it also added in a newline.  Typing another tab would take 
you to the second tab stop, etc.  This almost provided a  consistent model 
between the screen and the printer, except for the introduction of newlines. 
 It had the advantage that the left sides of the items but the final outcome 
of the text was unpredictable in that the exact layout depended on the width 
of the items that you entered and that varied from screen to printer.


I too have a possible solution that changes the definition of tab, but have 
never actually attempted to implement it.  It is based on first looking at why 
tabs are on typewriters.  They were there for as a mechanism for building 
tabular data.  In fact if the writer wanted to put in a string of text that 
did not fit in the current area (ie. it would move you past the next tab stop) 
then it was up the the writer to figure out how to break that piece into two 
lines and adjust all of the other entries appropriately.  Given modern 
computers that are quite capable of doing this automatically given the correct 
constraints, it seems ridiculous that we use the normal notion of typewriter 
tabs to accomplish this task.  By doing this we only perpetuate a barely 
tolerable solution that was chosen by the technology that was available at the 
time.  I believe a better solution is to allow tabs to differentiate fields 
and have a tab take you to the next field.  If the current text does not fit 
within the current area (as defined by the tab stops) it is automatically 
wrapped to another line.  I can approximate this behavior by inserting a table 
inside of text with the size of the columns set to the tab stop settings and 
embedding a text object in each cell.  Now when I type in the first cell it 
will not ever write in the second cell but just add an extra line to the first 
cell when I type too much.  A tab at that point take me to the text object in 
the second cell and so on.  I now get my information displayed in a reasonable 
fashion with minimal work and if I change the tab stop settings, something 
quite reasonable will happen.  With typewriter tab model changing tab stops 
will often require changes to the tables that you have built up.


As an aside:  This is a problem that has existed for a long time.  BRAVO (the 
editor on the XEROX alto) sufferred from this problem as well.  It had a 
normal mode and a harcopy mode and if you ever used tabs only one of them ever 
worked out correctly, the other tended to look terrible.  I know that was 
quite q while ago and we should have progressed beyond the alto but I believe 
this remains to be a fundamentally difficult problem as long as you want to 
mimic what a typewritter does with tabs and you are trying to do so in an 
environment where the basic parameters (like font widths) will be different 
depending on the output media you have chosen.


Andy





\enddata{text,269907036}

\enddata{text822, 455709}
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Date: 26 Jul 90 01:15:35 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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>Yes, it is true that I many times wished EZ was even closer to Emacs
>than it already is (in fact, I even wish that the two were were one and
>the same program!).

Which EMACS?  If it were moved closer in some ways to GNU EMACS - e.g.,
by breaking the way ^T works, and not having it transpose the two
characters to the left of the cursor - I'd have to change it back before
using it.

>EZ may have been around longer than GNU Emacs, but remember that GNU
>Emacs itself is just a decendent of ITS/Twenex Emacs by the same
>author.  It's changed a lot since then, but I think it's done a pretty
>good job still of keeping itself remarkably consistent with the
>original Emacs.

If ^T is one of the ways in which it maintains that consistency, I
consider that a misfeature. :-)

EZ is, I suspect, more a descendant of *Gosling* EMACS than of GNU EMACS
(which shouldn't be too much of a surprise :-)).  Gosling may have been
the person who changed ^T's behavior (I suspect so, given that the Korn
shell gives GNUish behavior in its EMACS mode by default, but
Gosling/EZ-ish behavior if EDITOR is set to ".../gmacs"; I'm assuming
the "g" is for "Gosling").

Gosling EMACS also uses the ".BAK" and ".CKP" conventions for backup and
checkpointing files, and I suspect that's whence EZ got them. 
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Date: 26 Jul 90 01:39:59 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
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>	There is no provision for passing an argument to the function.
>
>	There is no completion of the name while typing it in.
>
>I can't offer a solution to the second problem, though someone could
>easily write a completion package that inspected that proctable.

I looked at it sufficiently long to conclude that "easily" may not be
the right word here; the whole completion stuff wasn't wonderfully-well
documented and seemed a bit intricate.  I'm sure it's doable; it just
looked like more work than I was about to do.

>To pass arguments you can utilize Ness.

But can you pass arguments to a function in any EMACS by doing M-X?  I
tried it on both MicroEMACS and GNU EMACS (not the latest version) with
functions that took arguments, and they prompted me for the argument,
just as they would have had they been bound to keys.  I assume they'd do
the same with Bill's M-X package.

>I do this by adding to my .atkinit the line
>
>	addkey ness-dostmt  \e\e  view  
>
>Then when I type ESC-ESC (or meta-ESC, I suppose) it prompts for Ness
>statements.  Any proctable function can be called and arguments passed.

At least in Gosling EMACS, there is a "run a command" function, done
with M-X, and an "evaluate Mlisp expression" function, done with
something else.  "ness-dostmt" seems more like the latter than the
former.

I don't see the inability to pass an argument to a function using M-X as
a problem, for those reasons.  It might be cleaner if proctable
functions worked the way GNU EMACS functions worked; i.e., if the
proctable entry included a spec for what arguments the function took,
with M-X doing the prompting, rather than the code that implements the
function doing so, and the arguments being passed to the function as,
say, an array of unions or some such.

This would centralize some of the user interaction, and shrink the code
of some proctable functions; it would also, given code that could cope
with the idea of a dialog box with more than one item, let Andrew prompt
for a multi-argument function with a dialog box if the value of
DialogPriority specified that the function in question should use a
dialog box.

Unfortunately, it could also require some rewriting of proctable
function code.

>For instance, to classify a message into a folder (am operation I don't
>have in my messages menu) I can type ESC-ESC and give the command:
>
>	messages_classify_by_name(currentinset, "foldername")
>
>Note that the dashes in the proctable names become underlines in Ness
>and that the first argument should be currentinset because that is
>expected by the proctable function.

OK, I'll bite.  Where's the code that prompts for a folder name if, say,
you have "messages-classify-by-name" bound to a key or menu item, and
you invoke it through a key sequence or menu item, rather than from
Ness?

The proctable function takes a "name" argument, but I didn't see any
code in the function for "messages-classify-by-name" that does the
prompting if there's a NULL argument, nor did I see anything in the
proctable entry telling any common code to prompt for it.  I must be
missing something.... 
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Date: 26 Jul 90 01:59:59 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
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>It currently requires dynamic loading before it will work on an architecture.

And even if your OS supplies run-time dynamic linking (as more UNIX
versions, for example, seem to be doing), which would probably obviate
the need to do much work making "doload.c" (there might even be one
that'd be portable among all SunOS 4.1/S5R4 implementations that
provided "dlopen()" and company, for example), I think you still need to
whip up assembler code for all the "ClassEntryN" thingies. 
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Date: 26 Jul 90 13:43:00 GMT
From: bbn.com!diamond.bbn.com!tcrowley@EDDIE.MIT.EDU  (Terry Crowley)
Organization: BBN Laboratories Incorporated, Cambridge, MA
Subject: Re: Tabs
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Andy, thanks for your post.  I'm also certainly very conscious of the
problems with interactions between tabs and the difference between
screen and printer fonts.  For many purposes, the table semantics
you discuss would be superior to trying to make do with "typewriter"
style tabs (although most typewriters don't support right, centered,
decimal, etc).

But, this might be an example of a case of "the best is the enemy
of the good".  Even with the problems of differences between screen
and printer fonts, tabs are extremely useful.  While a table editor
is appropriate for many things, consider all those "informal" 2 and
3 line tables that can easily make do with a simple notion of tabs,
or with tabs used at the beginning of the line where character
widths don't create a problem or with tabs used in a style with
fixed-width fonts.

There are some simple things a user can do to get around the problem
even for bigger tables.  They're the same kind of thing a troff
user learns when using the raw tabbing of troff (instead of tbl).
For example, set an explicit tab stop and tab over once rather than
using (a different number of) multiple tabs on each line.

Terry
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Subject: Parents, just don't understand.

\begindata{text,2579432}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}


How can a view object find who is its parent is in the view tree?

Really important, really simple, but I cannot find it in the 

documentation(hah!)


				Scott

				\smaller{hassan@informatics.wustl.edu

				Medical Informatics

				Department of Internal Medicine

				Washington University

				St. Louis, MO   63130

				(314) 362-3422

}\enddata{text,2579432}

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\begindata{text,269891608}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Well, it is strange that there doesn't exist at least at view-class 
macromethod along these lines:


class view  \{


  macromethods:

	Parent()		((self)->parent)


\};


I don't know what the reasoning is behind this because you just \bold{need} to 
get your parent sometimes -- mostly when posting menus and keystates.


Use this macro for any subclasses of view:


#define Parent(self)  ((self)->header.view.parent)


This macro is also useful:


#define  ViewLinked(self)  (view_IsAncestor(self,self_GetIM(self)))


Gary Keim

ATK Group

\enddata{text,269891608}

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\begindata{text,269891608}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Of course, I made a typo:


#define  ViewLinked(self)  (view_IsAncestor(self,\bold{view}_GetIM(self)))


Gary Keim

ATK Group

\enddata{text,269891608}

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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 11:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Michael Urban <urban%moose@rand.org>
Subject: Re: HELP! Building Andrew/AMS on Sparc SunOS 4.1
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References: <9007251754.AA27024@hercules>

\begindata{text,19095524}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Try to do the same type of action with CUI ($DESTDIR/bin/cui).  Use some CUI 
command like ``sublist'' or ``update'' to get it to do something comparable. 
 CUI's advantage here is that neither the screen actions of VUI nor the runapp 
stuff in Messages will get in your way.


Once you can get the thing to repeatably core-dump, set the debug flags in CUI 
and make the core dump happen again.  Then send me the trace.  (Don't send the 
whole thing to info-andrew.)  Thus:

	% cui

	CUI> set level wizard

	CUI> set debug -1 0 0 -1 0 0

	CUI> set term 0 500

	CUI> sublist

	....lots of debugging output...


mail it to me.  You can even do something like:


	% cui set lev wizard \\; set debug -1 0 0 -1 0 0 \\; set term 0 500 \\; 
sublist >& /tmp/dumfile


and get it all conveniently in one file, ready for perusal and/or mailing.


		Craig

\enddata{text,19095524}

\enddata{text822, 479109}
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 1990 12:37:00 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject:  Meta-X package,  the official word

\begindata{text,270212920}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{Bold
}
We're currently working on getting my meta-x package ready for release, it 
should be done by Monday and will hopefully be  available soon after.  In any 
case it will be a part of patch 7.


Note: contrary to my prior post it will be fully supported, and in the 
"extensions" subdirectory of the ATK sources.


-Rob Ryan

Student Programmer, ATK group, ITC

\enddata{text,270212920}

\enddata{text822, 481321}
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 1990 13:32:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net (Guy Harris)
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
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References: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>, <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<3756@auspex.auspex.com>

\begindata{text,270554960}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Meta-X 
package Guy Harris@uunet.uu.net (3111)}


\quotation{the whole completion stuff wasn't wonderfully-well

documented and seemed a bit intricate.

}
Amen.


\quotation{in Gosling EMACS, there is a "run a command" function, done

}\quotation{with M-X, and an "evaluate Mlisp expression" function, done with

}\quotation{something else.  "ness-dostmt" seems more like the latter than the

}\quotation{former.

}
This is precisely right.


\quotation{OK, I'll bite.  Where's the code that prompts for a folder name if, 
say,

}\quotation{you have "messages-classify-by-name" bound to a key or menu item, 
and

}\quotation{you invoke it through a key sequence or menu item, rather than 
from

}\quotation{Ness?

}
I must admit I didn't check to see if messages-classify-by-name prompted for 
the folder name.  Apparently this function is meant to be called with one of 
the messages-compound-... operations which permit calling functions and 
passing arguments in a fairly ad hoc and undocumented manner.


Fred Hansen\
\enddata{text,270554960}

\enddata{text822, 482891}
\begindata{text822, 485349}
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 1990 14:02:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Maria G. Wadlow" <maria+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting
In-Reply-To: <safAKUkGG01XEuEURj@athena.mit.edu>
References: <safAKUkGG01XEuEURj@athena.mit.edu>

\begindata{text,269867728}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 24-Jul-90 Lost styles 
when cutting&pa.. Nicholas J. Williams@ATH (1219)}


\quotation{A piece of text in one file contains characters from the `symbola' 
font

}\quotation{(i.e. the characters are in the symbola style). This piece of text 
is

}\quotation{selected and the `copy' operation performed. The text is then 
pasted

}\quotation{into a new file.  The new file now contains the pasted text 
surrounded

}\quotation{in the symbola environment, but the style called `symbola' is not

}\quotation{defined correctly in the new file - its definition is blank.  This 
means

}\quotation{that the characters in that style will not be seen correctly, and 
the

}\quotation{only way to get around this once the text has been pasted, is to 
edit

}\quotation{the file with vi or something and fill in the correct definition 
of

}\quotation{symbola.

}

This was a design decision.  The original goal of the templates was that 
people could either use the default definitions for styles or create their own 
definitions.  We did not want the system to indiscriminately override a 
definition that the user had explicitly put in place.  Therefore, style 
definitions are never carried with cut or copied text, because we could never 
ensure that we wouldn't accidentally overwrite an existing, but different, 
definition for that style.


			Maria



\enddata{text,269867728}

\enddata{text822, 485349}
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 15:49:23 -0400
From: sean@dsl.pitt.edu (Sean McLinden)
Message-Id: <9007261949.AA03459@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu, maria+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting



Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 24-Jul-90 Lost styles when
cutting&pa.. Nicholas J. Williams@ATH (1219) and response of
Maria Wadlow <maria+@andrew.cmu.edu>:


>> A piece of text in one file contains characters from the `symbola' font
>> (i.e. the characters are in the symbola style). This piece of text is
>> selected and the `copy' operation performed. The text is then pasted
>> into a new file.  The new file now contains the pasted text surrounded
>> in the symbola environment, but the style called `symbola' is not
>> defined correctly in the new file - its definition is blank.  This means
>> that the characters in that style will not be seen correctly, and the
>> only way to get around this once the text has been pasted, is to edit
>> the file with vi or something and fill in the correct definition of
>> symbola.
>
>
>This was a design decision.  The original goal of the templates was that
>people could either use the default definitions for styles or create
>their own definitions.  We did not want the system to indiscriminately
>override a definition that the user had explicitly put in place. 
>Therefore, style definitions are never carried with cut or copied text,
>because we could never ensure that we wouldn't accidentally overwrite an
>existing, but different, definition for that style.
>
>			Maria

This seems like a perfect place (one of many) where the user should be
able to specify a preference. I don't know the validity of this statement
but it seems more likely to me that the user would want to copy an object
with it's attributes *and* values than that they would want to copy an
object with the attributes but the values inherited from the new environment.
At least, I would think that the former was common enough that one would
want to have the option of that type of functionality.

Sean

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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 1990 17:26:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Maria G. Wadlow" <maria+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    sean@dsl.pitt.edu (Sean McLinden)
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting
In-Reply-To: <9007261949.AA03459@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>
References: <9007261949.AA03459@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>

\begindata{text,269884124}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 26-Jul-90 Re: Lost styles when cuttin.. 
Sean McLinden@dsl.pitt.e (1837)}


\quotation{This seems like a perfect place (one of many) where the user should 
be

}\quotation{able to specify a preference. I don't know the validity of this 
statement

}\quotation{but it seems more likely to me that the user would want to copy an 
object

}\quotation{with it's attributes *and* values than that they would want to 
copy an

}\quotation{object with the attributes but the values inherited from the new 
environment.

}\quotation{At least, I would think that the former was common enough that one 
would

}\quotation{want to have the option of that type of functionality.

}

In the current paradigm used by the text inset, style definitions hold true 
throughout a given document.  This paradigm has many benefits, however it also 
means that if I define the style "foo" to mean bold, everywhere that "foo" is 
used in the document, it will mean bold.  If I find some text in another 
document which includes a "foo" style, where "foo" is defined to mean italic, 
when I paste it into my document (and the style definition comes along, as 
suggested), all text wrapped in a "foo" style throughout the document will now 
be italic.  We didn't think that people would like that effect.


It might be nice to have a system that has preferences which control every 
aspect of the system.  However at some level, paradigm choices have to be 
made.  Given the choices that were made and the paradigms that exist in the 
system now, I don't believe that the suggested change would be consistent with 
the mental model we are trying to espouse.


			Maria

\enddata{text,269884124}

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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 13:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Parents, just don't understand.
In-Reply-To: <4afktOe0z7FZMKvUUa@informatics.noname>
References: <4afktOe0z7FZMKvUUa@informatics.noname>

For any subclass of view, you should be able to do:

((struct view *) self)->parent

Of course, there should be a method (macromethod) for this, so that you
could instead do

fooview_GetParent(self)

but in the absence of that method, the hack above should work.  -- NB
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Message-Id: <AafqS4IGG025MP5l9o@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 17:58:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nicholas John Williams <njw@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting
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References: <9007261949.AA03459@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>

\begindata{text,270015620}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from atk: 26-Jul-90 Re: Lost styles when cuttin.. 
"Maria G. Wadlow"@andrew (1257)}


\quotation{This was a design decision.  The original goal of the templates was 
that

}\quotation{people could either use the default definitions for styles or 
create

}\quotation{their own definitions.  We did not want the system to 
indiscriminately

}\quotation{override a definition that the user had explicitly put in place. 

}
Okay, so it's nice and won't override a user's definition of a style because 
it will not copy a definition across. However, if the user has not defined 
that style anyway, then they end up copying across styles which have no 
attributes defined and the normal user has no way of fixing this (messing with 
lookz is okay for some people, but the contortions neccessary to edit a style 
which does not appear on a menu is just too much hassle - users do not want to 
do this).


When copying styles across, I believe the correct action would be to check to 
see if a style exists. If it does exist, then do nothing (so adhering to the 
design decision of not overwriting a user's definition), else it *should* add 
the definition.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from atk: 26-Jul-90 Re: Lost styles when cuttin.. 
Sean McLinden@dsl.pitt.e (1837)}


\quotation{This seems like a perfect place (one of many) where the user should 
be

}\quotation{able to specify a preference. I don't know the validity of this 
statement

}\quotation{but it seems more likely to me that the user would want to copy an 
object

}\quotation{with it's attributes *and* values than that they would want to 
copy an

}\quotation{object with the attributes but the values inherited from the new 
environment.

}
I'm not sure that it should be a preference - If the code "did the right 
thing" as I see it above, then there is no need for another preference.


Nick.\
\enddata{text,270015620}

\enddata{text822, 495661}
\begindata{text822, 499126}
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 1990 18:22:53 -0400 (EDT)
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	<14360@jade.BBN.COM>

\begindata{text,270219884}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{notetotypesetter
menu:[Region~4,NoteToTypesetter~61]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}


Thanks to Andy for explaining the real story.


So what do people want tabs for anyway? In general , it seams to be for 
creating simple tables where numbers or strings line up reasonably. The table 
object provides this functionality, and it even goes to the extent of using 
the same troff  machinations that \italic{tbl} uses to get everything to line 
up. Though as Terry Crowley pointed out, often people don't want to bother 
with this mechanism just to get a simple 2 or 3 line table.  I have been 
experimenting with some software to make doing this sort of thing easier and I 
have a package that does some interesting things.


Take for example the following table, created with tabs between the fields


	header 1 (memo)	header 2	header 3

note 1	123	54	65

note 2	234	not applicable	88

note 3	999	645	345


Neither readable or pretty, I can select it with the mouse and call a function 
that transforms it into :


\typewriter{         header 1 (memo)   header 2         header 3

note 1   123               54               65

note 2   234               not applicable   88

note 3   999               645              345


}This form has the advantage that it both prints reasonably , and can be 
mailed to non-atk sites.

Another function will actually turn the above into a table, with the proper 
number of cells.

\begindata{table,270489776}
\cols 125 125 125 125
'	'header 1 (memo)	'header 2	'header 3
'note 1	'123	'54	'65
'note 2	'234	'not applicable	'88
'note 3	'999	'645	'345
\enddata{table,270489776}
\view{spread,270489776,0,0,0}

Thanks to table's print mechanism, this will print properly. The above table 
just contains simple strings. If I want styled text, or text that will span 
lines , I have another function that will turn.


	\bold{header 1} (memo)	\bold{header 2}	\bold{header 3}

note 1	123	54	65

note 2	234	\italic{not applicable} but this is nothing to worry about	88

note 3	999	645	345


into the following

\begindata{table,270506448}
\cols 125 125 125 125
'	\begindata{text,270486388}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\bold{header 1} (memo)\
\enddata{text,270486388}
	\begindata{text,270500164}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\bold{header 2\
}\enddata{text,270500164}
	\begindata{text,270598704}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\bold{header 3\
}\enddata{text,270598704}

\begindata{text,270385108}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
note 1\
\enddata{text,270385108}
	'123	'54	'65
\begindata{text,270496752}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
note 2\
\enddata{text,270496752}
	'234	\begindata{text,270617112}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\italic{not applicable} but this is nothing to worry about\
\enddata{text,270617112}
	'88
\begindata{text,270585428}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
note 3\
\enddata{text,270585428}
	'999	'645	'345
\enddata{table,270506448}
\view{spread,270506448,1,0,0}

Again, this actually prints, though people that arn't reading this with AMS 
are missing the table object that the above styled text became. Just in case 
anyone reading this newsgroup the last few weeks is wondering why people 
bother with ATK , I should point out that one of the beauties of ATK is the 
fact that this sort of functionality can be added to the system without any 
change or recompile of the system code. 


I won't claim that this is the perfect solution, but it could make things 
easier in many instances. If people are interested, I will look into making 
this code available.


	Regards,


		Tom Neuendorffer

\enddata{text,270219884}

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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 19:58:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Progress report on tab implementation...

Nick has successfully fleshed out the existing tab code in style and text.

We are now experimenting with setting the tab resolution to 84 dpi.
Why the magic number 84?

As Andy Palay pointed out, the screen fonts are not the same size as the
printer font.  The actual rule of thumb is:  AndyN becomes AdobeN+2.

So for a basic kludge, we said andy12 goes to times 14 a size increase of 1.16.
For an inch that increase becomes 84 dots not 72.

Unfortunately, the larger the font, the smaller the difference. So this
scale kludge will fail for all fonts smaller than 12 point, and will be
too large for all fonts larger.  However, since the goal is to make sure
that strings of text will end properly before the next tab stop, this
kludge works for virtually all cases.

Should I use 90 dpi instead and cover andy10 and andy8?

Recognize, that this is a kludge, but it puts us into a ball park where
the right answer comes out most often.

-wdc

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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 21:03:32 -0400
From: sean@dsl.pitt.edu (Sean McLinden)
Message-Id: <9007270103.AA04111@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu, maria+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting


>> This seems like a perfect place (one of many) where the user should be
>> able to specify a preference. I don't know the validity of this statement
>> but it seems more likely to me that the user would want to copy an object
>> with it's attributes *and* values than that they would want to copy an
>> object with the attributes but the values inherited from the new
>> environment.At least, I would think that the former was common enough
>> that one would want to have the option of that type of functionality.
>
>
>In the current paradigm used by the text inset, style definitions hold
>true throughout a given document.  This paradigm has many benefits,
>however it also means that if I define the style "foo" to mean bold,
>everywhere that "foo" is used in the document, it will mean bold.  If I
>find some text in another document which includes a "foo" style, where
>"foo" is defined to mean italic, when I paste it into my document (and
>the style definition comes along, as suggested), all text wrapped in a
>"foo" style throughout the document will now be italic.  We didn't think
>that people would like that effect.

This is simply a matter of differentiating between scope and functionality;
the two views are not inconsistent. It would be possible, for example,
to copy an object while preserving the value of it's attributes without
violating your rule. You don't copy the style definition, you copy the
attribute values, themselves. My suggestion that it be up to the user
which you do is not unreasonable if the problem is viewed this way.

>It might be nice to have a system that has preferences which control
>every aspect of the system.  However at some level, paradigm choices
>have to be made.  Given the choices that were made and the paradigms
>that exist in the system now, I don't believe that the suggested change
>would be consistent with the mental model we are trying to espouse.
>
>			Maria

Disagree (respectfully). Design should, after all, follow user needs
if you are developing user tools (the customer is always right). If the
model doesn't fit the application, you don't necessarily tell the
applications developer that he doesn't have a problem because you don't
have a solution. You can't have consistency if you make every design
choice a matter of user preference, but you can design a flexible model
that supports other ways of looking at things.

Sean




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From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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To: guy%auspex.uucp@uunet.uu.net (Guy Harris)
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <3756@auspex.auspex.com>
References: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
 <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<3756@auspex.auspex.com>

\begindata{text,2764992}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Meta-X package Guy 
Harris@uunet.uu.net (3112)}


\quotation{>[A reply to Fred Hansen's posting about using ESC-ESC and Ness, 
turning into a discussion about passing args to procs]

}
The proc system in ATK is unfortunately designed to be called by a keystroke 
and/or menu item on some kind of view.  The notion is that a single arg can be 
passed, through the Emacs standard of typing \example{^U argument} before 
invoking the function (the function \example{im_ProvideArg()} can also be 
called to set the argument value).  The function can then call 
\example{im_Argument()} to retrieve the argument, which is passed as a 
\example{long}.


But in general, ATK procs are argument-less functions designed to be called by 
user actions, that often prompt for input from the user.  This severely limits 
their usefulness in extension languages, such as Ness.  GNU Emacs has a triple 
model:


1)  Internal procedures are coded in C, and are meant to be called from C 
code.  These correspond to module-private functions.


2)  Elisp functions are coded in C or Elisp, and are meant to be called from 
the extension language (Elisp).  These are more like the exported interface 
provided by the ATK .ch files.  Almost all Emacs functionality is available 
through these, including many low-level primitives.


3)  A special set of procedures, corresponding to ATK procs, are defined to be 
called by the user.  These wrap a different interface around some set of the 
Elisp functions.  A stylized approach to defining them ensures that they 
prompt for possible arguments, if such are defined.  They may also be called 
from Elisp.


This middle layer seems to be what ATK is missing.  I think if one were to 
re-do such a project, having an extension language (Scheme sounds nice) in 
mind from the beginning, and implementing part of the application in the 
extension language, would be a good idea.  Such a layer can be added after the 
fact, though.  Ness almost does it right; it can call Class methods as well as 
procs.  But is has to re-parse the .ch file each time the function is 
interpreted (I think), which makes for slow execution.  I think the class 
compiler should do the parsing and leave the results in another .dox file, in 
a form that could be easily loaded by the extension language.


Bill



\enddata{text,2764992}

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Date: 26 Jul 90 13:34:09 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Message-Id: <104319@convex.convex.com>
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>ATK.  tm, the contrib terminal emulator, does not emulate a vt100, the
>way that xterm does, and it loses the ability to use cut/paste etc.,
>when being used by a curses program.

I couldn't even get curses/termcap programs to display correctly inside
of tm.

>- printing for all of ATK is very delicate.  It requires that one have
>AT&T ditroff, and Adobe's transcript package.

Wouldn't another *roff clone work as well?  How's Transcript required?

>only things that really make the grade are console and messages.

Outside of an AFS environment, console doesn't even seem that useful.

>course, messages uses umpty-zillion inodes (every message in a separate
>file)

Don't many other unix UMA's do that?  I'm fairly sure that at least MH does.


> and hides your mail in files that are hard to run grep on

This is quite true.  It's not just grep either -- anything that wants to
interpret the leading + as a switch causes problems.

>Now, if you're just going to run messages and console, ATK requires a
>lot of disk and a lot of intellectual effort, to get everything running.

I would have liked more information about the whole mail-locking issue when
I set it up here.  I *still* don't fully understand the issues about mailbox
locking, which is why I haven't announced the availability of messages here.
/var/spool/mail would be NFS mounted, and while I haven't had any obvious
problems on my workstation, I can't encourage my users to use something
that might lose their mail when it interacts with binmail on the mail server.


--
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Subject: Re: Parents, just don't understand.
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\begindata{text,2901336}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Parents, 
just don't und.. Gary Keim@andrew.cmu.edu (520+0)}


\quotation{Well, it is strange that there doesn't exist at least at view-class 
macromethod along these lines:

}
\quotation{class view  \{

}
\quotation{  macromethods:

}\quotation{	Parent()		((self)->parent)

}
\quotation{\};

}
\quotation{I don't know what the reasoning is behind this because you just 
\bold{need} to get your parent sometimes -- mostly when posting menus and 
keystates.

}
\quotation{Use this macro for any subclasses of view:

}
\quotation{#define Parent(self)  ((self)->header.view.parent)

}

Well, why not add "Parent" as a macromethod to the view class in the next 
patch, rather than tell everyone to define their own macro and leave it at 
that?

\enddata{text,2901336}

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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net (Guy Harris)
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
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References: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>, <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<3756@auspex.auspex.com>,
	<4afmYTa00VsPA=FG0C@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,2901336}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Meta-X 
package Fred Hansen@andrew.cmu.e (940+0)}


\quotation{\quotation{OK, I'll bite.  Where's the code that prompts for a 
folder name if, say,

}}\quotation{\quotation{you have "messages-classify-by-name" bound to a key or 
menu item, and

}}\quotation{\quotation{you invoke it through a key sequence or menu item, 
rather than from

}}\quotation{\quotation{Ness?

}}
\quotation{I must admit I didn't check to see if messages-classify-by-name 
prompted for the folder name.  Apparently this function is meant to be called 
with one of the messages-compound-... operations which permit calling 
functions and passing arguments in a fairly ad hoc and undocumented manner.

}
I think you're looking for the last 4 functions defined in 
atkams/messages/lib/ams.c.  This is an example of using the completion 
package, in this case for folder name completion.  In this case, it 
\italic{can't} be made to take an argument, I believe.  


However, in general you can exploit the (undocumented) fact that when you call 
a proctable entry from an init file and do NOT pass an argument to it, the 
 argument is NULL.  Thus you can write a proctable entry that interacts with 
the user if & only if that parameter is NULL.  


For an example of a function that does this successfully, look in 
atkams/messages/lib/sendaux.c, at the code that implements the ^O function in 
the sending window.  This is bound to the procedure UserWantsAHeader.  If no 
arguments are passed, it will prompt the user for the header, otherwise it 
will use what is passed in.

\enddata{text,2901336}

\enddata{text822, 520016}
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Tabs
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 10:16:19 EDT

Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> So what do people want tabs for anyway?
>> [An Andrew ToolKit view (a spreadsheet) was included here, but could not
>> be displayed.]

This illustrates precisely the problem with relying on Table to do it all.

On my desk I have three computers: this MIT Project Athena workstation with 
EZ as my favorite editor, a PC on which I often use one of Word for Windows, 
Wordperfect or Epsilon, and a Mac with Word.  They're all connected to the 
net, and I have to routinely move data files and documents
files between formats and programs.  I want a tabbed document from the
PC or Mac to be viewable on the workstation without herculean cutting and
pasting or filtering into tables.  Thus, I'd say, tabs in the basic
editor have to work somewhat.

"Somewhat" could mean every half inch left-justified and that's all. (that's
about all on the PC too, and in the default settings of Macintosh and Windows
Word, as well as WP).  If the screen fonts  have dpi metrics  
associated with them, measured tabs shouldn't be so hard to work out. 


Rob Smyser
----------
Manager, Computer Resource Laboratories
MIT School of Architecture and Planning
77 Mass Ave #9-512, Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-3535    smyser@athena.mit.edu
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <104319@convex.convex.com>
References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>, <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<104319@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,2901336}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (1545)}


\quotation{I would have liked more information about the whole mail-locking 
issue when }\quotation{I set it up here.  I *still* don't fully understand the 
issues about mailbox }\quotation{locking, which is why I haven't announced the 
availability of messages here. }\quotation{/var/spool/mail would be NFS 
mounted, and while I haven't had any obvious }\quotation{problems on my 
workstation, I can't encourage my users to use something }\quotation{that 
might lose their mail when it interacts with binmail on the mail server. }


AMS won't hurt you with having /var/spool/mail NFS-mounted, but 
sendmail/binmail will/might.  You're living very dangerously if you're letting 
normal sendmail/binmail deliver mail into spool files on NFS.  I recommend 
against it.


However, if you're already doing that, I don't think AMS can make things any 
worse.  -- Nathainel

\enddata{text,2901336}

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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Carl M. Fongheiser" <cmf@unix.cis.pitt.edu>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <104319@convex.convex.com>
References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>, <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<104319@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,1938480}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't ATK more 
wide.. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (1545)}


\quotation{>- printing for all of ATK is very delicate.  It requires that one 
have

}\quotation{>AT&T ditroff, and Adobe's transcript package.

}
\quotation{Wouldn't another *roff clone work as well?  How's Transcript 
required?

}
I haven't tried it, but groff ought to work.  It has all the functionality 
needed, though not necessarily compatibly.  Maybe I'll try that this 
afternoon...


\quotation{>only things that really make the grade are console and messages.

}
\quotation{Outside of an AFS environment, console doesn't even seem that 
useful.

}
I'd have to agree with that.  I can't even get console to stay running on my 
PMAX!


\quotation{>course, messages uses umpty-zillion inodes (every message in a 
separate

}\quotation{>file)

}
\quotation{Don't many other unix UMA's do that?  I'm fairly sure that at least 
MH does.

}
Yes, it does, and it's relatively trivial to turn an MH folder into an AMS 
folder.


\quotation{>Now, if you're just going to run messages and console, ATK 
requires a

}\quotation{>lot of disk and a lot of intellectual effort, to get everything 
running.

}
\quotation{I would have liked more information about the whole mail-locking 
issue when

}\quotation{I set it up here.  I *still* don't fully understand the issues 
about mailbox

}\quotation{locking, which is why I haven't announced the availability of 
messages here.

}\quotation{/var/spool/mail would be NFS mounted, and while I haven't had any 
obvious

}\quotation{problems on my workstation, I can't encourage my users to use 
something

}\quotation{that might lose their mail when it interacts with binmail on the 
mail server.

}
Depending on the version and OS you're running, it might work or it might not. 
  'flock' definitely does *not* work over NFS, and you'll run into trouble if 
you try to do it that way.  One of the many reasons we're looking at AFS here.


					Carl Fongheiser

					cmf@unix.cis.pitt.edu

\enddata{text,1938480}

\enddata{text822, 528514}
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
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References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>, <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<104319@convex.convex.com>,
	<kag5Vkk_V0001KrkZs@unix.cis.pitt.edu>

\begindata{text,269893068}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 27-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't ATK more wide.. 
"Carl M. Fongheiser"@uni (1801+0)}


\quotation{I'd have to agree with that.  I can't even get console to stay 
running on my PMAX!

}

We've recently discovered a bug on the dynamic loading code for the pmax that 
results in console leaving rudely.  It will be out in the next patch but if 
anyone wants it sooner send me mail and I get it to you.


Gary Keim

ATK Group

\enddata{text,269893068}

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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 1990 12:37:24 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: troff and transcript
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References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>, <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
	<104319@convex.convex.com>,
	<kag5Vkk_V0001KrkZs@unix.cis.pitt.edu>

\begindata{text,269880332}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\quotation{Wouldn't another *roff clone work as well?  How's Transcript 
required?

}
We have been trying to find a working version of c++ so we can try groff. I 
have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work, and would be very interested 
in hearing from anyone who has been able to try it. 


With regards to Transcript, the piece that ATK uses is the\italic{ psdit} 
program that takes the output of ditroff and translates it into postscript. I 
believe that all ditroff users who print on Postscript printers are using this 
package, whether they know it or not. Lpr is smart enough to call it when it 
is needed. If you are printing on non-postscript printers, then you don't need 
\italic{psdit}, however, by the same token, you won't be able to print the ATK 
objects that generate postscript rather than troff. The most common objects 
that generate postscript are \italic{raster} and the drawing editor\italic{ 
zip}. When these objects are embedded in text, or another object that 
generates troff, the postscript they generate is surrounded by some special 
macros so that troff leaves space for the drawing that is then passed through 
to the printer. \
\enddata{text,269880332}

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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 13:18:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Nichols <nichols@parc.xerox.com>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Tabs
In-Reply-To: <oafsCFUGG02=BckOs7@athena.mit.edu>
References: <oafsCFUGG02=BckOs7@athena.mit.edu>

One feature I would really like from Tabs is that they can be made to
emulate Unix tabs easily.  When I read mail with messages, I run across
messages that have tables formatting for fixed with fonts.  So I use the
"This Message,Fixed Width" menu item to see it fixed width, only to
discover that the tabs still don't work right.  I'm not sure where the
fix goes, but the Fixed Width menu item is a lot less useful to me in
this mode.

	David
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From: David Nichols <nichols@parc.xerox.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Saint Andrew...
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References: <EadCDRIB0KGWA3hJZK@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
 <0adTPN8B0TlkM4PEF=@zany.EuroPARC.Xerox.COM>,
	<3755@auspex.auspex.com>

\begindata{text,2471616}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Dear Saint Andrew... 
Guy Harris@uunet.uu.net (1292)}


\quotation{Gosling may have been} \quotation{the person who changed ^T's 
behavior (I suspect so, given that the Korn} \quotation{shell gives GNUish 
behavior in its EMACS mode by default, but} \quotation{Gosling/EZ-ish behavior 
if EDITOR is set to ".../gmacs"; I'm assuming} \quotation{the "g" is for 
"Gosling").

}
Actually, a number of the differences in key bindings and behavior between 
Gosling Emacs and ITS Emacs are due to Mike Kazar.  Mike wrote a 
screen-oriented editor for Tops-10 called FINE.  When James wrote his Emacs 
for Unix, he just copied the FINE key bindings.  The funny thing to me about 
all this is that while some of the changes (like ^T) were intentional, some 
(like ^X^F bound to exit instead of find file) were simply because Mike 
mis-remembered the ITS bindings.


	David

\enddata{text,2471616}

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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 1990 17:05:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Maria G. Wadlow" <maria+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    sean@dsl.pitt.edu (Sean McLinden)
Subject: Re: Lost styles when cutting&pasting
In-Reply-To: <9007270103.AA04111@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>
References: <9007270103.AA04111@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu>

\begindata{text,269872204}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 26-Jul-90 Re: Lost styles when cuttin.. 
Sean McLinden@dsl.pitt.e (2404)}


\quotation{Disagree (respectfully). Design should, after all, follow user 
needs

}\quotation{if you are developing user tools (the customer is always right). 
If the

}\quotation{model doesn't fit the application, you don't necessarily tell the

}\quotation{applications developer that he doesn't have a problem because you 
don't

}\quotation{have a solution. You can't have consistency if you make every 
design

}\quotation{choice a matter of user preference, but you can design a flexible 
model

}\quotation{that supports other ways of looking at things.

}

I don't disagree with this statement.  Quoting my statement in an earlier 
message:


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Lost 
styles when cuttin.. Maria G. Wadlow (1551+0)}


\quotation{Given the choices that were made and the paradigms that exist in 
the system now, I don't believe that the suggested change would be consistent 
with the mental model we are trying to espouse.

}

I am not arguing that the current paradigm is the correct or best or most 
flexible one, just that it is the one we currently use.  If you suggest 
changing the current paradigm to one that supports the functionality being 
discussed, that's one thing (though I am certainly not signing up to do it). 
 But I don't believe that adding options without regard to maintaining 
consistency with the current system is in the best interest of the user.


			Maria

\enddata{text,269872204}

\enddata{text822, 541313}
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 17:23:32 EDT
From: bill@allegra.tempo.nj.att.com (Bill Schell)
To: info-andrew-bugs@andrew.cmu.edu, info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: problem with tree view object

Any other treev users out there?

There seems to be a serious problem in the tree view object.  If you
add/delete a node from an exploded tree, the tree gets redrawn with the
siblings of the node in question drawn around the center of the
screen regardless of where the parent node was.  The siblings are also
drawn several rows lower than the should be.  The lines leading to
them are also drawn on top of anything that happens to be in the way.

Has anyone else encountered and hopefully fixed this bug?  I include
an example below.

Thanks,
	Bill Schell
	AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ
	bill@research.att.com

----------- EXAMPLE --------------------

If you load the following tree into org, explode it from the top and delete,
say, node 'h', you'll see the problem.

\begindata{org,912400}
  a
    {
    b
    c
    d
      {
      f
      g
      h
      i
        {
        p
        q
        r
        s
        }
      j
      }
    e
      {
      k
      l
      m
      n
        {
        t
        u
        v
        }
      o
      }
    }

\enddata{org,912400}

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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 18:56:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 975+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        David Nichols <nichols@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Tabs
In-Reply-To: <0ag_5voB0KK7MImrU_@osprey.parc.xerox.com>
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	<0ag_5voB0KK7MImrU_@osprey.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,1888516}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 27-Jul-90 Re: Tabs David 
Nichols@parc.xerox (443)}


\quotation{One feature I would really like from Tabs is that they can be made 
to }\quotation{emulate Unix tabs easily.  When I read mail with messages, I 
run across }\quotation{messages that have tables formatting for fixed with 
fonts.  So I use the }\quotation{"This Message,Fixed Width" menu item to see 
it fixed width, only to }\quotation{discover that the tabs still don't work 
right.  I'm not sure where the }\quotation{fix goes, but the Fixed Width menu 
item is a lot less useful to me in }\quotation{this mode.

}
\quotation{	David

}

I'll bet I know why the tabs fail for typewriter font:

The textview object currently sets the tab width to 8 pixels.

The width of a character in andytype10 must be wider than 8 pixels.

Or it could be bugs in the tabbing code of drawtextv.


I think this problem can be repaired by incorporating the scaling factor I 
mentioned: fatten tabs on the screen by the amount that the font is fattened 
for screen display.  (Some multiplier between 1.25 and 1.16)


-wdc

\enddata{text,1888516}

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To: atha!decwrl!uunet.uu.net!convex!datri@uunet.UU.NET (Anthony A. Datri)
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "26 Jul 90 13:34:09 GMT."
             <104319@convex.convex.com> 
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 90 10:21:43 BST
From: lyndon@cs.athabascau.ca

> >- printing for all of ATK is very delicate.  It requires that one have
> >AT&T ditroff, and Adobe's transcript package.
> 
> Wouldn't another *roff clone work as well?  How's Transcript required?

Presumably the only ditroff facility required is the ability to embed
postscript source within the troff document. GNU roff provides this
facility, and I'm looking at using it as a replacement *roff backend.
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Date: 27 Jul 90 19:15:06 GMT
From: mtxinu!ed@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Ed Gould)
Organization: mt Xinu, Berkeley
Subject: Re: troff and transcript
Message-Id: <1301@mtxinu.UUCP>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>With regards to Transcript, the piece that ATK uses is the psdit program
>that takes the output of ditroff and translates it into postscript. I
>believe that all ditroff users who print on Postscript printers [use psdit]

It is certainly not true that psdit is the only available or usable
ditroff-to-PostScript translator.  If your lpr system understands
printing to a PS printer - by whatever means - then ATK can use lpr
to do the job.  It works here, and we do not have TranScript.

-- 
Ed Gould                    mt Xinu, 2560 Ninth St., Berkeley, CA  94710  USA
ed@mtxinu.COM		    +1 415 644 0146

"I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady.  I'll fight them as an engineer."
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Date: 27 Jul 90 20:16:00 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Message-Id: <104405@convex.convex.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>AMS won't hurt you with having /var/spool/mail NFS-mounted, but
>sendmail/binmail will/might.  You're living very dangerously if you're
>letting normal sendmail/binmail deliver mail into spool files on NFS.  I
>recommend against it.

What I've got is /var/spool/mail mounted from the server, which is where
mail is also directed via an alias.  My concern is that AMS/Messages might
read /var/spool/mail/datri (for example) and truncate it at the same time
that binmail on the server is trying to deliver new mail into that mailbox.
The client machine's sendmail.cf has Sun's "OR" flag set so that local
mail is sent to the server's sendmail instead of the local one.  Thus, local
binmail and sendmail never write.

--
\enddata{text822, 553302}
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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 1990 11:30:02 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    mtxinu!ed@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Ed Gould)
Subject: Re: troff and transcript
In-Reply-To: <1301@mtxinu.UUCP>
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	<1301@mtxinu.UUCP>

\begindata{text,270187876}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
O.K. Ed I'll bite. What are the alternatives to psdit for translating ditroff 
output to postscript? Will they allow postscript to be passed through so that 
we can use them for ATK work? Are any public domain?  Inquiring minds want to 
know :>. 


	Tom



	\
\enddata{text,270187876}

\enddata{text822, 555386}
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Date: 28 Jul 90 18:25:17 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uupsi!sunic!nuug!sigyn.idt.unit.no!he@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Haavard Eidnes)
Organization: Div. of CS & T, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Message-Id: <1990Jul28.182517.12115@idt.unit.no>
References: <104319@convex.convex.com>, <kag5Vkk_V0001KrkZs@unix.cis.pitt.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

In article <kag5Vkk_V0001KrkZs@unix.cis.pitt.edu> cmf@UNIX.CIS.PITT.EDU ("Carl M. Fongheiser") writes:
>> Wouldn't another *roff clone work as well?  How's Transcript required?
>
>I haven't tried it, but groff ought to work.  It has all the
>functionality needed, though not necessarily compatibly.  Maybe I'll try
>that this afternoon...

Ok, several other seem to think the way I do... I've tried to make groff
work with ATK documents. Below follows the changes I've done so far. Apply
at own risk. I've yet to be able to print a combined graphics and text 
document, but I am able to print pure text documents and pure raster images.
I do not have the time to continue working on this, so I would appreciate 
it if someone else picked this up and continued.

Regards,

Havard Eidnes

------------------------------ Cut here:
#! /bin/sh
# This is a shell archive, meaning:
# 1. Remove everything above the #! /bin/sh line.
# 2. Save the resulting text in a file.
# 3. Execute the file with /bin/sh (not csh) to create:
#	README
#	patches
#	atk_print
# This archive created: Sat Jul 28 19:21:47 1990
export PATH; PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH
if test -f 'README'
then
    echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'README'"
else
cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'README'
Preliminary try at supporting printing ATK documents with groff.

Explanation of changes:

atk/text/tmac.atk:
	.po change apparently needed because .po occurs outside of a .de ..
	section. groff complains otherwise.

	Add knowledge of "ps" printertype.

	Non-space mode has to be turned off for spacing to work. Since we
	use the \X'ps:import' primitive, and the postscript image is imported
	with its lower left corner at the current troff output position, we
	have to space forward appropriately.

	I don't understand what this testing for number register .j is all
	about. My doc (Sun's) says it's something to do with adjust mode,
	but why would a picture be positioned elsewhere due to different
	adjustment modes? Also my doc doesn't mention what the different 
	values of .j are supposed to mean. Since the perl program makes 
	some guesses (that troffadjust will be defined to { pop 0 }), the 
	conditional code should perhaps be changed to unconditional? Anyway, 
	it's difficult to convey to the perl program what adjustment mode 
	will be used...

	I just comment out the PB and PE macro calls, since we won't be using
	Transcript.

atk/text/txttroff.c:
	Changes are straight-forward -- just change of font names.

atk_print:
	Perl program which splits out imbedded postscript in ditroff style
	and constructs the (hopefully) appropriate \X'ps:import' statement.
	After running groff deletes the constructed input files. Yes, my
	inexperience with using perl probably shows here...

I'd be glad if someone else turned this into something that worked for
combined documents!

he@idt.unit.no, 28 Jul 1990
SHAR_EOF
fi
if test -f 'patches'
then
    echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'patches'"
else
cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'patches'
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a18173	Sat Jul 28 20:07:47 1990
--- atk/text/tmac.atk	Thu Jul 26 22:31:31 1990
***************
*** 91,95 ****
  ..
  .	\" default footer string definitions 
! .po +\\n(INu
  .	\" BT	-- Bottom trap handling
  .de BT
--- 91,95 ----
  ..
  .	\" default footer string definitions 
! .po +\n(INu
  .	\" BT	-- Bottom trap handling
  .de BT
***************
*** 353,358 ****
--- 353,361 ----
  .if  "\*(.T"postscript"  'nr zT 1
  .if  "\*(.T"psc"  'nr zT 1
+ .if  "\*(.T"ps"  'nr zT 1
  .de PB
  'ne \\$2p
+ 'rs
+ 'sp \\$2p
  'nr zw \\n(.l-\\n(.k-1m-\\$1p
  'nr zH \\n(.k
***************
*** 369,383 ****
  .sp |\\n(zVu
  'if ((\\n(zx<=0)&(\\$2p>0.75v)) \\x'\\$2p-0.75v'\\c
! \\!%
! \\!%!
! \\!  PB
  'if \\n(.j=3 \\{\\
! \\!    /troffadjust { neg 2 idiv } def
  'ss\\}
  'if \\n(.j=5 \\{\\
! \\!    /troffadjust { neg } def
  'ss\\}
  'if \\n(.j<3 \\{\\
! \\!    /troffadjust { pop 0 } def
  'ss\\}\\}
  ..
--- 372,386 ----
  .sp |\\n(zVu
  'if ((\\n(zx<=0)&(\\$2p>0.75v)) \\x'\\$2p-0.75v'\\c
! .\" \\!%
! .\" \\!%!
! .\" \\!  PB
  'if \\n(.j=3 \\{\\
! \X'ps:exec    userdict beginn /troffadjust { neg 2 idiv } def end'
  'ss\\}
  'if \\n(.j=5 \\{\\
! \X'ps:exec    userdict begin /troffadjust { neg } def end'
  'ss\\}
  'if \\n(.j<3 \\{\\
! \X'ps:exec    userdict begin /troffadjust { pop 0 } def end'
  'ss\\}\\}
  ..
***************
*** 384,389 ****
  .de PE
  'if \\n(zT \\{\\
! \\!  PE
! \\!.
  'ie \\n(zx \\{\\
  'if (\\$2p>0.75v) \\x'\\$2p-0.75v'\\c
--- 387,392 ----
  .de PE
  'if \\n(zT \\{\\
! .\" \\!  PE
! .\" \\!.
  'ie \\n(zx \\{\\
  'if (\\$2p>0.75v) \\x'\\$2p-0.75v'\\c
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a18179	Sat Jul 28 20:08:43 1990
--- atk/text/txttroff.c	Tue Jul 24 12:52:35 1990
***************
*** 133,143 ****
      /* All shadowface is bold for now */ 
  } fonttable[] = {
!     {"timesroman", {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "B"}},
!     {"helvetica", {"H", "HO", "HB", "HD", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "B"}},
!     {"andy", {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "B"}},
!     {"andysans", {"H", "HO", "HB", "HD", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "B"}},
!     {"andytype", {"C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "C"}},
!     {"gacha", {"C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "C"}},
!     {0, {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "B"}}
      /* default for unknown family */
  }; 
--- 133,143 ----
      /* All shadowface is bold for now */ 
  } fonttable[] = {
!     {"timesroman", {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "B"}},
!     {"helvetica", {"HR", "HI", "HB", "HBI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "B"}},
!     {"andy", {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "B"}},
!     {"andysans", {"HR", "HI", "HB", "HBI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "B"}},
!     {"andytype", {"CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "CR"}},
!     {"gacha", {"C", "CO", "CB", "CD", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "CR"}},
!     {0, {"R", "I", "B", "BI", "CR", "CI", "CB", "CBI", "B"}}
      /* default for unknown family */
  }; 
SHAR_EOF
fi
if test -f 'atk_print'
then
    echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'atk_print'"
else
cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'atk_print'
#!/local/bin/perl

$mainfile = "/tmp/atk_main.$$";
$outfile = "/tmp/atk_ps.$$";
$template = "/tmp/atk_ps_part$$";

open(main,">" . $mainfile) || die "Can't open $mainfile for write!";

$tmp_no = 0;
$pb_seen = 0;

while(<>)
{
  if($pb_seen)
    {
      if(/^\'if/)
	{
	  printf main $_;
	  $tempfile = $template . "_" . $tmp_no++;
	  open( temp, ">" . $tempfile ) || die "Can't open $tempfile!";
	  printf main "\\X'ps:import $tempfile %d %d %d %d %d %d'\n",
		  0, -$height, $width, 0, $width * 1000, $height * 1000;
	}
      else
	{
	  if(/^\'PE/)
	    {
	      $bp_seen = 0;
	      close(temp);
	      printf main "\\}\n" ;
	      printf main $_;
	    }
	  else
	    {
	      if(/^\\}/)
	      {
		next;
	      }
	      s/\\!//;
	      printf temp $_;
	    }
	}
    }
  else
    {
      if(/^\'PB/)
	{
	  $pb_seen = 1;
	  $line = $_;
	  split;
	  $width = $_[1];
	  $height = $_[2];
	  printf main $line;
	}
      else
	{
	  printf main $_;
	}
    }
}

close main;

system "groff -C -e -Tps $mainfile";

for( $n = 0; $n < $tmp_no; $n++ )
{
  unlink($template . "_" . $n);
}

unlink($mainfile);
SHAR_EOF
chmod +x 'atk_print'
fi
exit 0
#	End of shell archive
\enddata{text822, 557018}
\begindata{text822, 565728}
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          Sat, 28 Jul 1990 17:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <8agUBDC00VsPACnWBW@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 1990 17:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 1613+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
CC: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <wafwd_kB0KGWAUB0kI@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <oadsvcAB0KGWM1fnli@holmes.parc.xerox.com>,
 <MaeqTl200VsP86NbFd@andrew.cmu.edu>,
	<3756@auspex.auspex.com>,
	<wafwd_kB0KGWAUB0kI@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,271019916}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 26-Jul-90 Re: Meta-X 
package Bill Janssen@parc.xerox. (2270+0)}


\quotation{This middle layer seems to be what ATK is missing.  I think if one 
were to re-do such a project, having an extension language (Scheme sounds 
nice) in mind from the beginning, and implementing part of the application in 
the extension language, would be a good idea.  Such a layer can be added after 
the fact, though.  }


Yes, much work is needed to make ATK really accessible from an extension 
language.  Scheme sounds wonderful for hackers, but not so nice for mere 
mortals.


\quotation{Ness almost does it right; it can call Class methods as well as 
procs.  But is has to re-parse the .ch file each time the function is 
interpreted (I think), which makes for slow execution.  I think the class 
compiler should do the parsing and leave the results in another .dox file, in 
a form that could be easily loaded by the extension language.

}
Not only can Ness functions call methods and class procedures, they can also 
access and set instance variables in objects.  The .ch files are parsed only 
once, the first time they are needed.  All subsequent Ness compilations in the 
same process reuse the .ch reparse already done.  Ness compilation could 
indeed avoid this reparsing if .dox files were generated, though the class 
compiler does not do as thorough a job of parsing the declarations as does 
Ness.  (Actually, Ness could use the .dog file directly, though then we would 
pay for loading it.)


A problem with access to C from Ness is the mismatch in types.  Not all C 
types and structures are implemented in Ness.



Fred Hansen\
\enddata{text,271019916}

\enddata{text822, 565728}
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Message-ID: <MagUbP_00VsPMCnWgN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 1990 17:55:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 380+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tabs
In-Reply-To: <EagAOTQGG02=M1QI4N@athena.mit.edu>
References: <oafsCFUGG02=BckOs7@athena.mit.edu>,
	<0ag_5voB0KK7MImrU_@osprey.parc.xerox.com>,
	<EagAOTQGG02=M1QI4N@athena.mit.edu>

\begindata{text,271019916}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 27-Jul-90 Re: Tabs Bill 
Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (975+0)}


\quotation{I think this problem can be repaired by incorporating the scaling 
factor I mentioned: fatten tabs on the screen by the amount that the font is 
fattened for screen display.  (Some multiplier between 1.25 and 1.16)

}
Egad.  No.  Please no. 


Tabs are already far too wide on the screen. 


FredH\
\enddata{text,271019916}

\enddata{text822, 568848}
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Date: 28 Jul 90 22:51:42 GMT
From: auspex!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Message-Id: <3791@auspex.auspex.com>
References: <2869@awdprime.UUCP>, <Iaf=reAB0KGWA1fxYr@holmes.parc.xerox.com>, <104319@convex.convex.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>I couldn't even get curses/termcap programs to display correctly inside
>of tm.

I've gotten MicroEMACS to work inside of one (albeit slowly, when
running the "tm", the MicroEMACS, and the X11R3 server on the same
humble 3/50; the X11R4 server did much better), at least to the limited
extent that I tested it.  There may well be problems I didn't bump into.

>>course, messages uses umpty-zillion inodes (every message in a separate
>>file)
>
>Don't many other unix UMA's do that?  I'm fairly sure that at least MH does.

Yup, but that just means more UNIX UMAs than just "messages" are a
little scary to those of us with

	auspex% ls -l /usr/spool/mail/guy
	-rw-------  1 guy       3327379 Jul 28 15:44 /usr/spool/mail/guy
	auspex% from | wc -l
	    1500

(and I don't think I could get a disk to myself on the NS5000
upstairs...).
\enddata{text822, 570645}
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Date: 28 Jul 90 23:13:23 GMT
From: shelby!neon!neon.Stanford.EDU!ham@decwrl.dec.com  (Peter R. Ham)
Organization: Stanford University
Subject: Re: Meta-X package
Message-Id: <HAM.90Jul28161323@Neon.Stanford.EDU>
References: <wafwd_kB0KGWAUB0kI@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

What's "Ness", I'm interested in extension languages.
I've missed the beginning of this discussion.
--
\enddata{text822, 572846}
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Date: Mon Jul 30 09:53:00 1990
From: hansen@madis.af.mil (John Hansen)
Subject: Re: troff and transcript
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Status:  N 

With regard to printing without ditroff and Typescript and the possibility
of using groff instead, I have semi-successfully done just that.  I used g++
to compile groff (make sure you have cperf or gperf for gpic) and have
tested ez with no insets and it works OK.  I had to preference the 
formatcommand to:
groff -T$PRINTERTYPE -e /tmp/$s.n |

I also had to ln -s a devpsc directory to the devps directory which groff
uses.  One of the files I tried to print attempted to use a couple of fonts
that it couldn't find (I think C and CD) so I cp'd the CR (courier) font
file and edited the name entry for C & CD --- I don't know enough about troff
to tell what negative effects this may have on output.  Also I edited the
groff shell script to allow for a -Tpsc argument (is this hardwired into ATK?)
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to test ZIP cause it keeps dumping core
(patchlevel 5) and TABLE works but the test I ran printed the inset EZ cell
properly but all the other cells were printed in very small print. (ie TINY -
but barely readable)  AND the boxes I drew around the cells had lines sticking
up at the tl & tr corners.  I don't know it this is groffs fault or Andrews.
I haven't yet attempted to test EZ with insets (other than ZIP which dumped)
so I can't report on any problems that might exist with using groff on such
a file.  Nor have I tested printing from any of the other programs.

For reference sake, my machine is a Vaxstation 3200 with Ultrix 3.2 (X11.3)

Hope someone finds this info interesting and useful.  Getting groff to work
was not TOO hard but it did require a lot more effort than it should have.

Thanks,

John Hansen
madis!hansen@lognet2.af.mil
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 90 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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If-Type-Unsupported: alter
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <104405@convex.convex.com>
References: <104319@convex.convex.com>, <gag4Upi0M2YtIcrMBU@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<104405@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,2901128}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 27-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (720)}


\quotation{My concern is that AMS/Messages might} \quotation{read 
/var/spool/mail/datri (for example) and truncate it at the same time} 
\quotation{that binmail on the server is trying to deliver new mail into that 
mailbox.

}
This is a valid concern, but it is equally valid with ANY mailer that removes 
things from the spool file.  Messages carefully follows the file locking 
conventions that were established on /usr/spool/mail files in early versions 
of UNIX.  However, these simply DO NOT WORK RELIABLY ON NFS.  That's all there 
is to it.  AMS is no worse than any other mail reader in this situation. 
 (Where the spool files are on local disks or AFS, or anything else that 
supports flock,  AMS will be as reliable as any mail reader, and more reliable 
than the many that don't do proper locking.)


You're right to be concerned about locking on /usr/spool/mail files, but 
you're wrong to think that AMS makes the situation any worse.  You should 
either


A.  Not have your spool files on NFS (that's what we do at Bellcore), or


B.  Only use mailers that always leave everything in the spool files, never 
even deleting messages, which is ridiculous, or


C.  Give up on reliability.


Blaming AMS for this situation is just ridiculous; AMS follows every 
convention there is regarding the spool file, but there is simply no 
established way to make the spool file mechanism secure against lost mail in 
the absence of flock.  There are ways I could imagine doing it, but you'd have 
to modify the delivery program AND all the mail readers.  At CMU, we build a 
whole new delivery system because of problems like this.  I'm not saying you 
should do the same, just don't fool yourself into thinking that this problem 
has anything to do with using AMS user interfaces and you're safe if you don't 
use them, because it doesn't and you aren't.  -- Nathaniel

\enddata{text,2901128}

\enddata{text822, 576971}
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From: sbc@informatics.WUstl.EDU (Steve Cousins)
Message-Id: <9007302201.AA13125@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Fonts in bdf form?


I just got MacX, and am trying to run my ATK-based applications on the Mac
screen.  Surprisingly, they actually run fine, but of course MacX doesn't
have any of the Andrew fonts.  MacX has a tool to compile bdf fonts, but
all I see in the andrew distribution are fdb fonts -- and they look different.
Is there an fdb to bdf tool around, or how would you suggest adding the fonts
to MacX?  Has anyone tried this?

Thanks for any details.

Steve Cousins
Medical Informatics Laboratory
Washington University, St. Louis

sbc@informatics.wustl.edu
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 90 17:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, sbc@informatics.wustl.edu (Steve Cousins)
Subject: Re: Fonts in bdf form?
In-Reply-To: <9007302201.AA13125@informatics.WUstl.EDU>
References: <9007302201.AA13125@informatics.WUstl.EDU>

\begindata{text,2711664}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I just did this, by running a find script on the Andrew sources to find all 
.fdb files, and put them in a single directory, then running fdb2bdf on each 
file in that directory.  Here's fdb2bdf.  Note that it assumes you have fdbbdf 
on your search path (presumably in $\{ANDREWDIR\}/bin).


\example{#!/bin/csh

sed -e 's/^$spacing \\(.*\\),.*$/$spacing \\1,0/' $\{1:r\}.fdb > 
/tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb

fdbbdf /tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb >$\{1:r\}.bdf

rm /tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb

}
Bill

\enddata{text,2711664}

\enddata{text822, 582299}
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Message-Id: <gahGxdIGG02=97tJA2@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 03:12:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Tabs: sorry Fred.
In-Reply-To: <MagUbP_00VsPMCnWgN@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <oafsCFUGG02=BckOs7@athena.mit.edu>,
	<0ag_5voB0KK7MImrU_@osprey.parc.xerox.com>,
	<EagAOTQGG02=M1QI4N@athena.mit.edu>,
	<MagUbP_00VsPMCnWgN@andrew.cmu.edu>

There's really no choice.

The tab code positions the character at the begining of the tab stop at
an absolute position on the screen.  This position is normally specified
in points, and translates to inches across the screen.

We have to widen the tabs to reconcile the fact that 72 pixels worth of
whitespace will be allocated for an inch wide tab.  Into this space, the
printer expects to put a certain sized string of 12 point characters,
which drawtextv has been instructed to fill with 14 point characters.

Therefore an inch on the screen becomes 84 points wide, which is the
same as 72 points on the printer if you're drawing  in Andy12: Times12
in the printer, Times14 on the screen.

But, fear not!  We have decided that default tabs should occur every
half inch (42 pixels on screen), as per the troff manual.  We think this
is much nicer than having them every 8 spaces. which would have been 56
pixels in andytype10, or 64 pixels in the existing tab code.

We are happy to report that the tab code does work, and that we have
tabs that appear at the same character positions on both the screen and
on the printer for a wide variety of tests.  (We are aware that this
fudge factor is an approximation and WILL fail for certain tab sizes in
certain fonts.  We are even planning to compute precicely where it will
fail just for funsies...)

We are considering what options are available to re-integrate all this
lovely text work so that it performs adequately for users of the
typewriter font.

The Example style should define tabs to be 8 spaces nicely on the screen
and on the printer.  (Probably 64 pixels on screen and 64 points in
print.)  We are discovering that this is something that troff got
exactly right:  offering the user the option of positional tabs, or
character tabs.

We look forward to further work to make a streamlined conversion between
tabified text and tables, and we're interested in exploring that idea of
having fields get wrapped onto lines in a particular column.  But we
consider this all far afield of our first priority:  

Users have asked to be able to make simple tables.  They're not afraid
of diddling the tab stops to make the screen and printer line up nicely.
 They've been doing this for years in Scribe, and it's comfortable to
them.

Bill Cattey
&
Nick Williams


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Date: 30 Jul 90 19:15:31 GMT
From: convex!datri@uunet.uu.net  (Anthony A. Datri)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation; Richardson, TX
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Message-Id: <104457@convex.convex.com>
References: <104405@convex.convex.com>, <Eah3WUy0M2Yt8n6IAb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>NFS.  That's all there is to it.  AMS is no worse than any other mail
>reader in this situation.

I know, I know.  I didn't mean to imply that AMS was any different.

>You're right to be concerned about locking on /usr/spool/mail files, but
>you're wrong to think that AMS makes the situation any worse.

I don't -- I want to understand the issues for *any* mailer.

>A.  Not have your spool files on NFS (that's what we do at Bellcore), or

I have little choice -- my workstation is diskless, and the machines
that have spool/mail and to which aliases are directed are platforms on
which ATK doesn't really run.  Hence, to use Messages, it's got to be on
my workstation, over NFS.

>C.  Give up on reliability.

Granted, I haven't noticed a problem in many months of usage, but I wouldn't
feel good about turning it loose for my users without full comprehension.


>At CMU, we build a whole new delivery system because of problems like
>this.

Relies on AFS, though, doesn't it?

--
\enddata{text822, 588429}
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Message-Id: <wahMt7O0M2Yt0yL2BF@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 09:57:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Fonts in bdf form?
Cc: Robert Kraut <kraut@thumper.bellcore.com>
In-Reply-To: <AahAsnMB0KGWMUB6s8@holmes.parc.xerox.com>
References: <9007302201.AA13125@informatics.WUstl.EDU>,
	<AahAsnMB0KGWMUB6s8@holmes.parc.xerox.com>

We're going through the same process with our Mac-based people here. 
Bill's information looks good, but does anyone know a way to automate
the font compiling process that handles the bdf files once you get them
on the Mac?  Right now it's pretty tedious...  Thanks.  -- Nathaniel
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Message-Id: <gahNsFW0M2Yt8yL54g@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 11:04:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Dec 3100 woes
Cc: Tom Neuendorffer <tpn+@andrew.cmu.edu>

Am I the only person who has ever wanted to compile Andrew on a Dec 3100
at a site where we have only a binary UNIX license?

As far as I can tell, it is impossible to compile Andrew at such a site,
because you don't have the -g0 versions of libc.a or libm.a, and you
have no way to recreate them because you don't have source code!

Can anyone provide any helpful hints as to how to go about making Andrew
work on a binary distribution of the Dec 3100 version of Ultrix? 
Thanks.  -- Nathaniel
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Message-Id: <wahNwOq0M2YtIyL5Ub@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 11:09:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <104457@convex.convex.com>
References: <104405@convex.convex.com>, <Eah3WUy0M2Yt8n6IAb@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<104457@convex.convex.com>

\begindata{text,2722368}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 30-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Anthony A. Datri@uunet.u (986)}


\quotation{I have little choice -- my workstation is diskless, and the 
machines} \quotation{that have spool/mail and to which aliases are directed 
are platforms on} \quotation{which ATK doesn't really run.  Hence, to use 
Messages, it's got to be on} \quotation{my workstation, over NFS.

}
Ah, then what you want to do is the following:


1.  Install my "eatmail" program, which simply transfers mail from 
/usr/spool/mail/nsb into separate files in your Mailbox directory.  I sent 
this to the ITC, but I don't know if they're putting it in a patch or not.  If 
not, I can send you a copy privately.  It doesn't use dynamic loading, etc., 
and hence should be pretty easy to compile anywhere.


2.  Set up your sites AndrewSetup file with a line like the following:


AMS_MailCollectionCommand: rsh your-mail-mainframe /full/path/to/eatmail


This will mean that every time you say "Check New Messages", the eatmail 
program will be rsh'ed on your mail mainframe.  The eatmail program will move 
your mail into your Mailbox directory on NFS, and all will be well from there. 
 The spool file can stay local to the mainframe, so you won't have to worry 
about trying to lock files over NFS.


I think that should solve your problem -- good luck!  -- Nathaniel


\enddata{text,2722368}

\enddata{text822, 594427}
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Message-Id: <IahQ_la0M2Ye4Cyv0z@thumper.bellcore.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 13:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Howard Bussey <howard@thumper.bellcore.com>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 1834+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Cc: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
In-Reply-To: <wahNwOq0M2YtIyL5Ub@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <104405@convex.convex.com>, <Eah3WUy0M2Yt8n6IAb@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<104457@convex.convex.com>,
	<wahNwOq0M2YtIyL5Ub@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,1991664}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 31-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't 
ATK more wide.. Nathaniel Borenstein@thu (1307+0)}


\quotation{...

}
\quotation{1.  Install my "eatmail" program, which simply transfers mail from 
/usr/spool/mail/nsb into separate files in your Mailbox directory.  I sent 
this to the ITC, but I don't know if they're putting it in a patch or not.  If 
not, I can send you a copy privately.  It doesn't use dynamic loading, etc., 
and hence should be pretty easy to compile anywhere.

}
\quotation{2.  Set up your sites AndrewSetup file with a line like the 
following:

}
\quotation{AMS_MailCollectionCommand: rsh your-mail-mainframe 
/full/path/to/eatmail

}
\quotation{This will mean that every time you say "Check New Messages", the 
eatmail program will be rsh'ed on your mail mainframe.  The eatmail program 
will move your mail into your Mailbox directory on NFS, and all will be well 
from there.  The spool file can stay local to the mainframe, so you won't have 
to worry about trying to lock files over NFS.

}
\quotation{I think that should solve your problem -- good luck!  -- Nathaniel

}
I used another approach (with some consultation with Nathaniel) so that my 
mail went to one machine (thumper.bellcore.com) which has systems 
administration to make sure it keeps running, but I could read the mail from 
messages running on a workstation.  I simply put the following line in my 
per-user crontab (USG Unix V5.xx(?) , Sunos 4.0.xx):


\example{1,6,11,16,21,26,31,36,41,46,51,56 * * * * 
/usr/local/pkg/X11/andrew/bin/cui check\\; quit </dev/null >/dev/null 2>&1}


(it's all one line)

The problem is that this method breaks things like "xbiff".  Note that if 
having xbiff broken isn't a problem, Nathaniel's mail eater could replace this 
rather kludgy use of cui.  I'll be switching to "eatmail" soon.


Howard Bussey <howard@thumper.bellcore.com>; Bellcore MRE 2P-288;

voice: +201.829.4479; fax: +201.984.2283

\enddata{text,1991664}

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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 13:49:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Howard Bussey <howard@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
In-Reply-To: <IahQ_la0M2Ye4Cyv0z@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <104405@convex.convex.com>, <Eah3WUy0M2Yt8n6IAb@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<104457@convex.convex.com>,
	<wahNwOq0M2YtIyL5Ub@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<IahQ_la0M2Ye4Cyv0z@thumper.bellcore.com>

\begindata{text,2722368}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from info-andrew: 31-Jul-90 Re: Why isn't ATK more 
wide.. Howard Bussey@thumper.be (1834+0)}


\quotation{I used another approach (with some consultation with Nathaniel) so 
that my mail went to one machine (thumper.bellcore.com) which has systems 
administration to make sure it keeps running, but I could read the mail from 
messages running on a workstation.  I simply put the following line in my 
per-user crontab (USG Unix V5.xx(?) , Sunos 4.0.xx):

}
\quotation{\example{1,6,11,16,21,26,31,36,41,46,51,56 * * * * 
/usr/local/pkg/X11/andrew/bin/cui check\\; quit </dev/null >/dev/null 2>&1}

}
\quotation{(it's all one line)

}\quotation{The problem is that this method breaks things like "xbiff".  Note 
that if having xbiff broken isn't a problem, Nathaniel's mail eater could 
replace this rather kludgy use of cui.  I'll be switching to "eatmail" soon.

}
... and if having xbiff or console broken IS a problem (it would be for me), 
you can use a preference:


*.PersonalMailCollectionCommand: rsh mail-host-name /full/path/to/eatmail


or an AndrewSetupLine:


AMS_MailCollection:Command:  rsh mail-host-name /full/path/to/eatmail


Cheers.  -- Nathaniel



\enddata{text,2722368}

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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 11:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 774+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: nash@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Re: MacX fonts & input focus
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <9007311835.AA01233@roo.parc.xerox.com>
References: <9007311835.AA01233@roo.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,2703808}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 31-Jul-90 Re: Fwd: MacX fonts - fyi 
nash@parc.xerox.com (420)}


\quotation{Hmm. I didn't find it so daunting. I simply converted the andrew 

}\quotation{specific fonts (e.g., msg, con, etc.), and then created aliases

}\quotation{for the various andy entries (using the adobe fonts that come

}\quotation{with MacX). It's true that it's laborious to create the aliases

}\quotation{one at a time (a job i haven't quite finished yet) ...

}
Perhaps we can post the aliases file, and list of ATK-specific fonts.


\quotation{I wonder if any of these CMU people have seen the problem i

}\quotation{encountered with the mac window manager?

}
\quotation{-Ron

}
Might as well ask...


Anyone noticed that ATK applications will not accept input focus, running 
under MacX?  Almost like InputHint in WMHints is not being set (I checked our 
code, it is set).


Bill



\enddata{text,2703808}

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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 1990 16:51:21 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: X font aliases

\begindata{text,270070520}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
An fonts.alias which maps  ATK's font names to the Adobe fonts distributed 
with R4 can be found in the Andrew distribution as 
andrew/xmkfontd/non-andrew.fonts.alias.    A list of the fonts this alias file 
doesn't cover appears below:


symbol10

symbol12

symbol16

symbol22

symbol8

symbola10

symbola12

symbola16

symbola22

symbola8

msgs10

msgs14

con10

con12

times120


The fdb files for  symbol and symbola fonts can be found in 
andrew/overhead/fonts/fonts/adobe. 


msgs10 and msgs14 can be found in andrew/atkams/messages/cmd.


You will also need to convert the fonts in 
andrew/overhead/fonts/fonts/programs.


The following except from Bill Janssen's recent post shows the basic steps 
needed to  convert an fdb font to bdf.  


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.info-andrew: 30-Jul-90 Re: Fonts in 
bdf form? Bill Janssen@parc.xerox. (437+0)}


\quotation{Here's fdb2bdf.  Note that it assumes you have fdbbdf on your 
search path (presumably in $\{ANDREWDIR\}/bin).

}
\example{\quotation{#!/bin/csh

}\quotation{sed -e 's/^$spacing \\(.*\\),.*$/$spacing \\1,0/' $\{1:r\}.fdb > 
/tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb

}\quotation{fdbbdf /tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb >$\{1:r\}.bdf

}\quotation{rm /tmp/$\{1:r\}.tfdb}

}
Hope this is of some help,

-Rob Ryan

Student Programmer, ATK group, ITC\
\enddata{text,270070520}

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From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
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Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: nash@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Re: MacX fonts & input focus
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References: <9007311835.AA01233@roo.parc.xerox.com>

\begindata{text,2703808}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 31-Jul-90 Re: Fwd: MacX fonts - fyi 
nash@parc.xerox.com (420)}


\quotation{Hmm. I didn't find it so daunting. I simply converted the andrew 

}\quotation{specific fonts (e.g., msg, con, etc.), and then created aliases

}\quotation{for the various andy entries (using the adobe fonts that come

}\quotation{with MacX). It's true that it's laborious to create the aliases

}\quotation{one at a time (a job i haven't quite finished yet) ...

}
Perhaps we can post the aliases file, and list of ATK-specific fonts.


\quotation{I wonder if any of these CMU people have seen the problem i

}\quotation{encountered with the mac window manager?

}
\quotation{-Ron

}
Might as well ask...


Anyone noticed that ATK applications will not accept input focus, running 
under MacX?  Almost like InputHint in WMHints is not being set (I checked our 
code, it is set).


Bill



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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Janssen <janssen@parc.xerox.com>
To: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Why isn't ATK more widely used?
Cc: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <8ahQGSG0M2YtQyL8pG@thumper.bellcore.com>
References: <104405@convex.convex.com>,
 <Eah3WUy0M2Yt8n6IAb@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<104457@convex.convex.com>,
 	<wahNwOq0M2YtIyL5Ub@thumper.bellcore.com>,
 	<IahQ_la0M2Ye4Cyv0z@thumper.bellcore.com>,
	<8ahQGSG0M2YtQyL8pG@thumper.bellcore.com>

Perhaps what we need is another version of `xbiff' called `andybiff'
which will look at Mailbox rather than /usr/spool/mail/$USER.  Then you
could have `eatmail' running as a daemon without worrying about it.

Bill
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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 90 18:09:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Robert Andrew Ryan <rr2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: X font aliases
In-Reply-To: <kahSx9C00VsQA0xkZF@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <kahSx9C00VsQA0xkZF@andrew.cmu.edu>

I have a fonts.alias file which I like better than the non-andrew.fonts.alias.
It correctly performs the transformation AndyN to AdobeN+2, and it
compensates for the fact that the Standard X distribution doesn't
include a 16 point font family by a kludge: Since I'm on a 72 dpi
screen, I use a 100 dpi font family that has a 17 point PIXEL size.

-wdc

Here is the fonts.alias file:

----8<---- cut here ----8< ----

andytype10bf	-adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--*-120-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype10bif	-adobe-courier-bold-o-normal--*-120-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype10f	-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--*-120-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype10if	-adobe-courier-medium-o-normal--*-120-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype12bf	-adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--*-140-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype12bif	-adobe-courier-bold-o-normal--*-140-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype12f	-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--*-140-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype12if	-adobe-courier-medium-o-normal--*-140-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype14bf	-adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--17-120-100-100-m-100-iso8859-1
andytype14bif	-adobe-courier-bold-o-normal--17-120-100-100-m-100-iso8859-1
andytype14f	-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--17-120-100-100-m-100-iso8859-1
andytype14if	-adobe-courier-medium-o-normal--17-120-100-100-m-100-iso8859-1
andytype8bf	-adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--*-100-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype8bif	-adobe-courier-bold-o-normal--*-100-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype8f	-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--*-100-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andytype8if	-adobe-courier-medium-o-normal--*-100-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1
andysans10	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans10b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans10bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans10i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans12	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans12b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans12bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans12i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans14	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-88-iso8859-1
andysans14b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-92-iso8859-1
andysans14bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--17-120-100-100-p-92-iso8859-1
andysans14i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--17-120-100-100-p-88-iso8859-1
andysans16	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans16b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans16bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans16i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans22	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans22b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans22bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans22i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans8	-adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans8b	-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans8bi	-adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysans8i	-adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy10	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy10b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy10bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy10i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy12	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy120	times120
andy12b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy12bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy12i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--*-140-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy14	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-84-iso8859-1
andy14b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-88-iso8859-1
andy14bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--17-120-100-100-p-86-iso8859-1
andy14i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--17-120-100-100-p-84-iso8859-1
andy16	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy16b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy16bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy16i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--*-180-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy22	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy22b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy22bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy22i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--*-240-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy8	-adobe-times-medium-r-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy8b	-adobe-times-bold-r-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy8bi	-adobe-times-bold-i-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andy8i	-adobe-times-medium-i-normal--*-100-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
andysymbol10	symbol10
andysymbol12	symbol12
andysymbol16	symbol16
andysymbol22	symbol22
andysymbol8	symbol8
andysymbola10	symbola10
andysymbola12	symbola12
andysymbola16	symbola16
andysymbola22	symbola22
andysymbola8	symbola8
messages10	msgs10
messages14	msgs14
console10	con10
console12	con12
andrew120	times120
\enddata{text822, 614503}