Advice on Buying Used Squeezeboxes

Subj:  re:Re: Old Accordion prices
Date:  Tue, Mar 14, 1995 3:23 PM EDT
From:  RKB4%ERF%EbrFacErf@bangate.pge.com
To: SMTP%GO01@ServerTue.pge.com,  14 Mar 95 818@, 35
PST%[HMTRAD%aol.com]@bangate.pge.com, @
CC: accordion@cs.cmu.edu

The note below got me thinking about the adviseability of buying an
accordion for "only" $250 or so. While you might get one that was playable
and in tune I wouldn't count on it. Generally once an accordion gets to be
25-30 years old or so you can count on major maintenance items. Generally
this is about the life span of the wax that holds the reeds in and may
dictate a rewaxing job. In addition no accordion that is 30 years old is
going to be very in tune. Other things that are quite likely to pop up are
mold in the accordion, rusty reeds, wornout/damaged bellows, bad reed
leathers.

All of these things tend to run the cost of that "cheap" accordion up
rapidly. You could be looking at anywhere from $300 to $1500 for a
renovation project. My advice is that if you decide to buy a cheap
accordion you consider the hidden costs and decide up front whether it is
of a quality that would warrant any outlay of money. Often if you get a
cheap accordion and you can live with its defects and only want it as a
knock around accordion or a student instrument you might be able to use it
for a while...just don't rely on it for any heavy duty use.

If you are considering purchasing an old accordion a couple of tests you
can do to see if it is facing impending doom are:
-Check the bellows for leaks.
-Listen for any rattles when playing...this could be a sign of a reed that
has broken free of its wax.
-Play every note comparing the push stroke sound with the pull stroke
sound. If it is out of tune it will be fairly obvious even if you don't
have a particularly great ear.
-Play an octave of each note...for instance low C and the C an octave
higher at the same time. They should be intune to each other.
-Smell the accordion and its case. If it has a musty smell there is a good
chance it has mold, rusty reeds, etc. Rusty reeds are bad and throw the
accordion out of tune and make it impossible to retune without a major
maintenance job...if it is even possible to resurrect it.
-Stay away from any accordions that have been used on ocean going boats or
stored in very humid climates...rusty reeds and mildew are likely.
-Accordions that have been played all the time are generally the best deal
since they are likely to have been better taken care of. The worse deals
are the accordions that "Johny" played 30 years ago and stuck in the
garage when he lost interest.

                        Bob Berta

----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------

 Just now getting around to reading some of the low priority stuff in my
mailbox. This sure is an active list!

us9wnbtl@ibmmail.com writes:

"I always buy used accordions. I'd suggest hunting around for something
cheap to see if you like it. I never pay more than $250 for an accordion and I
play professionally. There are a lot of them in attics and stuff."

I agree with the buying used accordions policy. Me too. The part of the
country where you live, and whether you live in an urban or rural area,
can have a lot to do with prices. In the DC area, you'd be lucky to find
anything *in playing condition* for under $250, although it can be done.
Most of
the classifieds I see, people around here are asking $300 and up, and most of
these need from $200 on up in repairs before they play and sound decent.

Wendy
HMT

=====================================================================

From: hmtrad@cais.com (House of Musical Traditions Inc)
Subject: Used accordion evaluation

>For several years I have been looking for another "lady's sized" 120 bass PA.
>The one I have been using for the last 36 years is a Titano that my parents
>purchased new for $350.00. In a neighboring town a woman will sell a blac UMA
>lady's accordion that was built in the early 1950's by Archie Pancotti.  It
>has a couple bent keys and has been moved from "hall closet to hall closet"
>for several decades without being played.  I have not yet seen it, but she
>played some scales and chords for me on the telephone and it sounded pretty
>good.  Neither of us knows what a fair price for this box should be.  Would
>someone be willing to give me an estimated FAIR price range, sight unseen?
>I don't want to cheat her, but I don't want to "get taken" either.

I really hate answering these kinds of questions, but since I get to price
these things for walk-ins all the time, I guess I should respond. Sight
unseen, it's almost impossible to accurately judge the value of an
accordion, or any instrument, for that matter. I will tell you this:
assuming everything works, the keyboard is level, there are no bad reeds,
no internal rattles, no bellows leaks or internal leaks, the instrument is
not badly out of tune, and there are no signs of mold on either the case,
the straps, or the bellows, you should expect to pay anywhere from $100 to
$600, depending on how many decorative touches (fancy deco grille,
rhinestones, etc.) it has.

A really fine collectors piece in excellent playing condition would be at
the upper end, an ordinary utilitarian box in pretty good condition would
be at the lower end. A 40 year old accordion, no matter how nice, is due
for an overhaul at a cost of anywhere from $300 for a minimal
"get-by-cheap" job up to as much as $1500 for the deluxe treatment. When
you purchase an instrument of this age, you are taking a chance on the wax
holding up until you have gotten your value out of the accordion. The reed
blocks could fall out at any time (or not for years), especially in the
middle of playing, and then you are faced with the choice of paying for an
expensive overhaul, or tossing the instrument and cutting your losses. Even
if the blocks don't actually fall out, as the wax cracks, the sound begins
to suffer, and you will have to put up with a lot of annoying buzzes,
wheezes, and squeeks from the reeds.

Therefore you must also factor in the intrinsic non-musical value of the
instrument before you make your purchase decision. If it is a really pretty
decorative piece, even if it falls apart musically, you will still be able
to recoup some of your investment from an antique dealer, who can sell it
as a mantelpiece sitter. Or, you may be willing to invest in the eventual
overhaul of this accordion. I myself would be willing to spend up to $400
on such an instrument, but _only_ after seeing it, playing it, and falling
in love with it.

On the other hand, a run-of-the-mill good player, 40 years old, with not
much else to recommend it wouldn't be worth more than $50 to me, and even
then I'd have to see some potential in the instrument (what might it sound
like if I threw a few hundred dollars at my repairman to work on it?).

Perhaps you can make a contingency purchase, with a final commitment one
way or the other after you get a chance to play the instrument a little
bit. If you can't, I wouldn't offer the seller very much money for it.

Hope this is helpful.

Wendy
=====================================================================
Date:  Mon, Mar 13, 1995 12:47 PM EDT
From:  hmtrad@cais.com
Subj:  Re: HMTs Wendy . . . and PAs
To:      clark@salus.med.uvm.edu
cc:      accordion@cs.cmu.edu

clark@salus.med.uvm.edu writes:
"...I'd love to find/own a sort of flashy piano accordion--
bejeweled, be-rhinestoned, whatever.  Not too pricy, no need for a lot of
reed sets (though musette would be nice).  Can you give me any tips on
models? where to look? are they all old ones?..."

Toni - Your budget has a lot to do with which answer applies to you. What
you are describing is the same sort of box I am always on the lookout for.
Most likely, we are talking about an older box (30 y.o. +) which means
while you can probably find one for under a grand, at that age it's likely
going to need the reed plates rewaxed soon, a major undertaking, even if it
doesn't require anything else.

You can squeek by for a couple of years, usually, without having this done,
but sooner or later you're going to have to fork over major money for an
overhaul. If you find a box you adore, it's worth it. I recently had Junior
(who cost me all of $400 when I first got him) fully rewaxed, and other
stuff,  at a cost of $800. Yes, I minded, but I wouldn't have parted with
him for twice that.

New full size Italian made PA's, bejewelled or not, can easily run you in
the $3000 and up range. Unless they are custom handmade instruments, all
modern PA's have aluminum or duralumin reed plates, as opposed to the brass
ones used in older boxes which gave them that great old-time sound, and
added to their weight (the reeds themselves are always steel). An
instrument with duralumin reed plates can be put together with more reeds
and less weight than one with brass plates, but there is a tremendous
sacrifice in acoustic quality, in many people's opinions.

Models? There are hundreds, at least. I like the sound of the old Hohner
Tangos, but they're a bit too heavy for me. Hohner also made some nice
smaller 2 reed musette tuned boxes, the Carmen 48 bass, 60 bass and 80 bass
are manageable. Some have very nice decoration. One great thing about the
old Hohners, from a piano player's viewpoint: the piano keys are full size
(3/4"); a lot of the "ladies'" accordions, which are smaller and weigh
less, have narrow keys, either 5/8" or 9/16", that will drive you crazy if
you don't have very small hands.

How many basses, and what size keys? If you are only looking at 120 bass
boxes, along with standard keys and lots of decoration, on a brass
reed-plated box you're talking major weight, even if it's only 3 treble
reeds. On the other hand, if you can get by with 96, 80, 72, 60 or 48 (I
wouldn't go any lower) basses, you may find the weight more manageable.

Where to look? Put an ad in your local paper. Put a notice in Concertina &
Squeezebox Magazine, and on the Accordion & Concertina mailing list. Haunt
garage sales, estate sales, rummage sales, antique shops, flea markets.

One note about antique shops: they are never selling musical instruments as
such, but as "rare and valuable antiques", and they have NO idea of the
true value of what they have. You will see complete junk piles with an
asking price of $500. The only thing to do is hope you can reason with the
owner and explain the musical value of the instrument.

Wendy
HMT
=====================================================================
Jeff Myers  wrote:

>Dear group,
[...]
>p.s.--I saw several unplayable but old accordions in antique shops.  All
>of them seemed overpriced to me, but apparently the owners didn't expect
>to sell them to anyone interested in playing them.  One fellow suggested
>that no one could play these anymore.  Rather, people apparently buy them
>to decorate mantles, etc.  It's hard to believe that non-players are
>driving up the prices of accordions!

This has been going on for a LONG time, in the DC area, at least, to my
great dismay. What is really hard to believe is that people will pay
hundreds of dollars for a mantelpiece sitter that you or I wouldn't pay $25
for. I have had some lively negotiations with antique shop owners over
instrument prices (and not just over boxes, but also banjos, fiddles,
mandolins, etc.), but one is rarely able to convince them to lower their
prices to a reasonable amount based on the "it would take $300 to repair"
argument. They know they can sell the instrument for more to a non-player,
so they just don't care if they sell it to you or not.

Sometimes it breaks my heart, when I see a perfectly adorable little
squeezebox that only needs a few hundred bucks in repairs, being sold for 7
times its real value to someone who will never play it or even try to make
it well again. One wonders just how much the antique shop owners are paying
for these boxes in the first place.
=====================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:32:11 -0700
From: Peter Adler 
To: hmtrad@cais.cais.com, accordion@cs.cmu.edu
Subject:  antique shop prices - Reply

Of course, YMMV; antique dealer musical instrument prices depend a
great deal on the situations by which the dealer came into
possession of the instrument, and the details of the sale to the
'end-user' (that's YOU, kids).

Example: I purchased an extremely ornate Art Nouveau 3-stop Cajun
box, ca. 1920 in green, blue and silver with gilt trim, WITH its
original 1906 instruction book, at an antique dealer in Hopland,
California this past April.  The instrument was part of a large
collection of musical instruments from a Mendocino County estate
(woodwinds, brass, violins and guitars, mostly), and the dealer
had priced it at $150, because it was flashy.  Working with
Wendy's advice for checking out decrepit boxes, I determined that
there was around $200-300 worth of repairs before a useable
instrument resulted (rewax, some cleaning, minor bellows repairs).
I explained to the dealer that interest in such an instrument was
largely limited to other accordion players, and that the price
would be equally objectionable to any player.  The dealer was
reluctant to make more than small concessions on the price
UNTIL...

I decided to indulge another hobby, and porchased an old pocket
watch.  Since I have a great deal more experience and
sophistication with watches than with squeezeboxes, I could tell
that the watch was reasonably priced at $125, which enabled me to
offer $180 for both items, and assume that all the savings for
bulk purchases had come from the accordion.

The important point here is that, like any retailer, the dealer
has resources tied up in the item being sold, and they have to get
those resources out plus a bit, otherwise they ain't in business
no more.  A dealer of used stuff is more likely to accept a
discounted price on several items than on just one, and you can
amortize the total savings on tagged price any way that makes you
feel comfortable.

Another point to remember is that few antique dealers specialize
in old instruments, and so have little idea what they're worth.
My experience in the West (with watches, anyway) is that the items
just turn up in a bunch of other items, and the dealer simply
guesses at value, based on no information whatsoever.  Most
dealers are eager to learn the historical (and market) realities
of the stock they have for sale, and collectors are the best
source of that information.  So, educate the tradesfolk, when you
get the chance;  you may not get those great buys from someone who
sells things way under value, but at least you're less likely to
get ripped off (and, if you develop a friendly relationship with a
dealer, they may be able to let you know when they find something
in the attic of somebody's Aunt Bertha).
=====================================================================
Dear Wendy:

Can you tell me (us on the bulletin board!) what the terms "6x8" and "12x4"
mean?

The basses on a piano accordion are arranged (from the players perspective)
in vertical rows and diagonal columns (also sometimes referred to as rows,
as in "the C row"). On a full size 120 bass accordion, the count is 6 rows
(counterbass, bass, major chord, minor chord, 7th chord, diminished chord)
by 20 rows (all 12 tones of the scale, arranged in 5ths, plus 8 which are
duplicated to make smooth bass runs and playing in any key possible, even
the ones with lots of black notes).

Thus you could say, although nobody ever does, that the 120 bass PA is
6x20. However, on smaller PA's the bass arrangement is not necessarily
standardized. A 12 bass, the smallest available, is always 2x6, since the
only basses available are the bass note itself and the corresponding major
chord, and only 6 of the twelve possible notes are included, Bb, F, C, G, D
and A.  A 24 bass is usually 3x8 (bass, major, minor, and chords from Eb to
E), and although I have never seen one, I'd bet someone has made a 2x12 or
a 4x6. A 32 bass, the next common size, is 4x8, thus it has an advantage
over smaller instruments because it has the counterbass and minors as well
as 2 more chord rows.

The 48 bass used to be a more common beastie, during the days when more
people were taking accordion lessons as children, and there was more of a
demand for an intermediate accordion between the 12 bass they began with,
and a full 120 bass instrument. Not all 48 bass accordions were created
equal. Some had a full size treble keyboard, some had the full complement
of keys but those keys were narrower, some had the same or similar keyboard
to a 12 bass. But the bass layout is where you really see the difference.
Nowadays Hohner and others make a 48 bass with 6 rows (including the
largely-unnecessary-for-most-folk-music-please-no-flames 7th and diminished
rows) by 8 rows (which leaves out several very important bass rows,
especially B and F#).

Hohner (and several other makers) used to make a wonderful 48 bass with
full size treble keyboard, and basses in a 4x12 configuration. Thus you had
all the chords and basses you really needed, in the chromatic scale, and
you didn't have the extra weight of the additional hardware for the 5th and
6th rows and the duplicated bass rows.

Wendy
House of Musical Traditions
=====================================================================

Subj:  Re: two excelsior grands available
Date:  Fri, Apr 14, 1995 11:58 AM EDT
X-From: mikem@bga.com (Mike Maddux)
To: klaseen@erg.sri.com
CC: accordion@cs.cmu.edu

>   Two excelsior grands available
>       One has 10/6 switches and costs $2895
>       The other has 10/1 switches and costs $2795
>
> What are 10/* switches?
>
This just means that they both have 10 switches on the right hand and one
has 6 switches on the left side while the other has only one switch on the
left side.  What's the point of one switch?  I asked John the same thing -
apparently it's a toggle, so it works out being the same as having two
switches.

>      They are Excelsior symphony grands, American made, circa 1938
>      (approximately).  They have 4/6 reeds and no power master.
>
> What is a power master?

A power master is an extra master switch (all of the stops open) that is in
the form of a bar on the edge under the keyboard that you can hit with your
wrist.

What does the 4/6 imply on the reeds?

4/6 reeds means that there are 4 sets of reeds on the right hand and 6 sets
of reeds on the left hand.

If there are n reeds (on either side), there are 2 to the n possible
combinations, except that one of those is all stops shut, which isn't
useful, so there are 2 to the n minus 1 meaningful combinations.  Thus, with
4 reeds, there COULD be 15 switches.  Typically you wouldn't find an
accordion having that many switches because some of the combinations would
just sound bad, at least to most ears (or at least to the manufacturer's
ears).  On these Excelsiors there are 10 switches, or ten reed combinations
available, or - ten different SOUNDS available.

On the left hand there are 6 reeds, and thus 63 meaningful combinations, but
obviously a much smaller number are deemed useful.  The extra reeds on the
left side are intended more for beefing up the sound than for providing
variety in sound, as on the right side.

Mike Maddux

=====================================================================
From: Greg Bullough 
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:42:51 PDT
To: chris@harbour.demon.co.uk, accordion@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: traffic, and a question

>I have an elderly Hohner single-row in C which I picked up in a junk
>shop some years ago, because C is the key I most often sing in. It
>looks like a poker-work with just one row and four bass buttons. My
>problem is that the bellows are very stiff, and prolonged playing
>does not seem to change this. Is there anything that can be done about
>this?

Would that this kind of problem (continued stiffness after prolonged
playing) could be transferred to other areas of life at will ;-)

This seems to be endemic to the particular model Hohner. It's even worse
with the 'Cajun' version which has black trim and bellows. The only thing
I can think of is to suspend the box vertically from the left-hand strap
with the air-button taped open (or even not, as leaks will still exist),
and let the bellows stretch out.

Greg