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From: siamakr@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Siamak Rezaei (Durroei))
Subject: Re: Kurdish Language
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References: <32e2830d.447215@news.sn.no> <rharmsen.1921.00004902@knoware.nl> <32E511FC.3EA@tigerfund.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:48:26 GMT
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Hi,

In article <32E511FC.3EA@tigerfund.com> deniz_akkus@tigerfund.com writes:
>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Which bring up another question: Saw a Persian (or Iranian if
>> you like) film yesterday, and it appeared to me, that Persian
>> (perhaps Kurdish too, never heard that spoken) shares a certain
>> rhythm with Turkish. Don't understand a word of either, which
>> may make it easier to notice the similarity. Any reasons for
>> that? I mean Turkish obviously is _not_ IE.
>> 
>> Ruud Harmsen: http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/rharmsen/index.htm

The Persian and Turkish sound patterns are very similar to each
other. This is because of the influence of Arabic on them. They 
have accepted the syllable patterns of Arabic.

They have these Conconant (C) Vowel (V) clusters in their syllables

CV
CVC
CVCC

(Following some Persian linguists, I am assuming a consonant "hamze"
for all  words that have a vowel at the beginning e.g. aseman).

In most of Turkic this patterns are further restricted by vowel harmony 
in words - this is a characterstic of Mongolian language also. 
But for Persian, in older Iranian languages there were other patterns 
for syllables, such as:

CCV

Kurdish has preserved some of this in its words. The poetry of both
Turkish and Persian has also been influenced by rich poetry of Arabic.
I once read that the Persian poetry before Islam was based on number
of  syllables (e.g. in work of Ferdowsi). The Kurdish one as far as I
know is syllable based (the poetry  part is not my domain of work).
 
But there are some minor stress differences between Persian and 
Turkish. This is because of different discourse mechanisms.

Concerning Vocabulary and syntax: many of the words form Arabic which
were introduced into Persian were also introduced (plus many other
Persian words) into other languages such as Turkish and Urdu, through 
Persian court language. There are also some similarities between Persian and 
Turkish syntax. Ke tensed embedded clauses in Turkish have been 
borrowed from Iranian languages. There was no such concept as tensed
embedded clauses in Turkic. The Turkic languages in the Soviet have 
borrowed a similar mechanism for this from Russian.

And Persian, Turkish Mongolian have similarites in differentiation
between object and subject (specificity marking). Kurdish has not been
affected so far by this effect and it is an ergative language.
The older Iranian languages had ergativity. Unlike Persian and
Turkish, Kurdish has definite marker not restricted specific marking.

Because of cultural contact there are always borrowings from one
language to another or vice versa.  

- Siamak

PS There is a dissertation on contrasting Iranian and Turkic languages.
   (1985).

>At the risk of drawing the ire of net linguists, I would agree.  I am a
>native speaker of Turkish and don't understand Persian.  It is
>interesting to listen to Persian since if one doesn't concentrate and
>simply hears the sounds, one thinks one ought to be able to understand. 
>The reality of course that the Turkish speaker can't understand a word
>of Persian and vice versa. 
>
>Among the Turkic languages, Turkish seems to have lost all of its
>guttural sounds and seems to be considerably "softer".  Perhaps it was
>because of the immense importance the Persian culture had on the Turkish
>tribes that traveled out of Central Asia via that route and turned
>Muslim around that region.  Definitely, the first Muslim empire they
>built, the Seljuk empire, spoke Persian as the court language and had a
>considerable amount of the Persian lands under its sway.  During Ottoman
>times, Persian was highly valued as a language of literature and
>poetry.   
>
>Turkish does have a number of Persian loan words in it.  Perhaps, along
>that period of Persian influence, the language turned similar in rhythm
>and pronunciation, but definitely it has remained separate in grammar or
>in core vocabulary.  
>
>regards,
>Deniz Akkus


