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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Kurdish Language
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References: <32E26CCD.1BE6@84783293.jhsdhjds.xnbcnx.uyuw> <rharmsen.1921.00004902@knoware.nl> <32E511FC.3EA@tigerfund.com> <5c56cr$qqb@news.NetVision.net.il>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:20:46 GMT
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In article <5c56cr$qqb@news.NetVision.net.il>,
Stan Goodman <sgoodman@netvision.net.il> wrote:
>In message <32E511FC.3EA@tigerfund.com> - Deniz Akkus
><deniz_akkus@tigerfund.com> writes:
>>
>>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>> Which bring up another question: Saw a Persian (or Iranian if
>>> you like) film yesterday, and it appeared to me, that Persian
>>> (perhaps Kurdish too, never heard that spoken) shares a certain
>>> rhythm with Turkish. Don't understand a word of either, which
>>> may make it easier to notice the similarity. Any reasons for
>>> that? I mean Turkish obviously is _not_ IE.
>
>There are other examples of this phenomenon. For example, in a number of
>otherwise unrelated languages of the north and east shores of the
>Mediterranean, the phonemes B and V are confused or interchangeable, e.g.
>Spanish, Greek, and Hebrew (but not in closely related languages like
>Portuguese and Arabic. 

I think you're talking about a different phenomenon.  He was talking about
"rhythm", i.e. intonation, and you're speaking of phonology.  You're also,
incidentaly, wrong:  Both Hebrew and Greek have a contrast between /b/ and
/v/.  Greek /v/ developed from earlier /b/ and /y/ (in certain positions).
Greek /b/ has its origins in the cluster /mp/ and borrowings from other
languages (e.g. /bira/ "beer").  Oversimplifying a bit, Hebrew /v/
developed from medial and final /b/; /b/ from initial /b/ and medial and
final /b:/.  

Balearic (arguably the most Mediterranean dialect of Catalan) retains the
/v/-/b/ contrast that has been lost in Spanish and peninsular Catalan.  In
these, you have the same sort of allophonic variation (in general, [B]
intervocalically and [b] elsewhere) that is present in the the other
voiced stops (e.g. [g] and [d], which are in complementary distribution
with [G] and [D]).  The origins of this alternation are parallel to the
those of Hebrew [v] (Biblical Hebraic [D] and [G] have reverted to [d] and
[g]), but not identical and separated by about two milennia.

>The confusion or equivalence of R and L in unrelated languages of eastern and
>southern Asia are commonplace, although e.g. Japanese and Chinese/Thai are
>from dirfferent language groups.  I assume that these points are the
>residue of languages previously spoken in these areas;...

Does this also account for the confusion of [r] and [l] in Caribbean
Spanish?  Or is that the influence of Chinese migrants to Cuba?  A lot of
languages happen to lack a contrast between [r] and [l]--but Mandarin
Chinese is not one of them.  They are in complementary distribution in
modern Korean (or were until a recent spate of borrowings, mostly from
English, established a /r/-/l/ contrast in initial position, at least
among younger speakers).

I wish I could remember which linguist said, "Substratum influence can
only be posited for the first generation of language learners.  It cannot
be mystically invoked generations later to explain otherwise unmotivated
changes."

-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
