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From: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Subject: Re: Burmese by any other name...
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Reply-To: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Organization: Seattle Community Network
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Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:42:31 GMT
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Contents:  Vitryssland, Mo,cambique, CZ

<Vitryssland>

Perhaps the reason "White Russia" never really caught on in English was 
that by the time Belorussia came to the attention of the English Lands 
the word "White", to describe Russians, had acquired such a strong 
political connotation ("anti-Communist", "counterrevolutionary", "non-Red")
that "White Russian SSR" looked like an oxymoron.  At least I've always 
*figured* that was why...  Though why the same thing shouldn't have 
obtained in Swedish and Flemish is beyond me...  My impression is that 
for most Americans, Belorussia by any name was a non-entity at least 
until it was awarded one of the USSR's "compensatory" extra seats in the 
UN, and even now I don't think most adult Americans could even 
*approximately* indicate the location of Belarus (or Belorussia or White 
Russia*) on a map of Eurasia--even if the map showed cities including 
Minsk (since most Americans probably don't know its capital, either)...
Incidentally, what forms have (had) currency in the international 
language of diplomacy (i.e. French)?

*"White Russia...?  Wasn't that a neighborhood in prewar Shanghai?..."

<Mo,cambique>

Bertilo wrote:
>... the neighbouring country is "Mozambique" in English, not 
>"Mo,cambique"..."

Actually, "normal English" *does* make occasional use of ",c", at least 
when the writer knows how to access the character, most commonly in the 
word "fa,cade" (as I mentioned recently in the "Margarine" thread); when 
the cedilla is *not* used, the word is spelled with plain "c", never with 
"z" (on the model of Mozambique) or "s" (on pronunciation grounds).  But 
Bertilo's right, "Mozambique" *always* has Z--in *English*.

<CZ>

Mark Rosenfelder wrote:
>We also have czar, but pronounce it like tsar... 

We *do*?  Which is *how*?

My guess is that, given texts containing these spellings to read aloud, 
on average, naive (i.e. non-Russian-speaking) Americans will be somewhat 
more likely to produce the etymologically correct /ts/ pronunciation for 
"tsar" than for "czar".  The spelling "tsar" is not uncommon when 
referring to a Russian or Bulgarian ruler, but "czar" (with /z/) is in my 
experience universal in American political and financial senses 
("President Clinton's drug czar", "the Administration's energy czar", 
"John Gollypockets, a banking czar in the 1960's and 70's, died 
today..."--these are never "tsars").

Many Americans seem to have real difficulty producing initial /ts/; I 
think they tend to say /s/ in "tsetse" and "tsunami", the only other 
common words (outside heavily Yiddish-influenced circles) with initial 
|ts|, but /z/ in |tsar|.  Odd, since intervocalically (pizza, Datsun, 
lotsa, matzoh) it's no sweat, and initial /tS/ (Czech, 'cello, ciao) 
causes no problems.

Incidentally, MW's _10th Collegiate_ lists the following dates (of 
first attestation in English--*not necessarily* in the current spelling) 
and etymological source languages and spellings:

czar		1555	< New Latin (!) |czar|(!)
czardas	(/tS/)	1860	< Hungarian |csa'rda's|
czarevitch*	1710	< Russian
czarina		1717	< prob. < German |Zarin|	(= czar's wife)
czarism		1855	
Czech	 	1841**

*Note (sexist?) absence of "czarevna".  Incidentally, only the *eldest* 
son (heir apparent) of the czar was called a "czarevitch", at least in 
English; what were his *younger* sons called?  (I think all of his 
daughters, as well as the czarevitch's wife, were entitled to "czarevna".)
And while we're at it, does/did Russian have a pair of terms corresponding
to English "czaritza/czarina" (empress regnant vs. empress consort)?

**Definitely post-Hus!

--
Liland Brajant ROS'    		"Intla yajuanti quinitzquise cohuame o intla
P O Box 30091      		quiise se pajyo, ax quinchihuilis tleno."
Seattle, WA 98103 Usono		
Tel. (206) 633-2434  		(Aj aj aj!  Liland krokodiledas!)
