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From: cq315@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Hank Walker)
Subject: Re: Language versus dialect
Message-ID: <DJrAx9.58s@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: cq315@freenet3.carleton.ca (Hank Walker)
Reply-To: cq315@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Hank Walker)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4b1ugt$62o@easy1.worldaccess.nl>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:34:21 GMT
Lines: 46

Gerard van Wilgen (gvwilgen@worldaccess.nl) writes:

> There seems to be a lot of difference of opinion about the question
> whether certain speech should be called a language or a dialect...

I just have a comment on rule 1 for now:
 
> Rule 1:
> 
> There should be differences in grammar. In this respect it is not
> enough if a certain grammatical feature is common in language A
> and rarely used in language B! It is essential that certain gram-
> matical features are generally considered correct in A while being
> generally considered incorrect in B.
> 
> Let's take for example Dutch and its descendant Afrikaans. In
> Dutch a double negation is considered a grave grammatical error
> (Ik sla mijn vrouw nooit niet = I never beat my wife not = I always
> beat my wife) but in Afrikaans this is the only possible construction
> (Ek slaan my vrou nooit nie = I never beat my wife)

Specify what you mean by "considered" correct or incorrect. Do you 
mean descriptively or prescriptively?
For example, given the following forms:

	(1) Zelim kupiti knjigu.	want+I buy+INF book+ACC
	(2) Zelim da kupim knjigu.	want+I that buy+I book+ACC
	  "I want to buy a book."

Form (1) is much more common in Croatian; form (2) in Serbian. Note,
however, that it is not impossible for a Croat or Serb to use the 
"alternate" (less common) form, but it is rare in casual speech.
(It's less rare in, say, lyrics to songs, where a rhyme may depend
on which form is used -- hence, both forms must be descriptively
grammatical to both langs/dials).

Also, the use of the alternate form is considered incorrect to
different degrees by different people. Some people don't care,
others consider it prescriptively wrong.

By specifying whether you mean prescriptively or descriptively,
you may reduce the likelyhood of nit-picking and quibbling on
this point.

--
	hank.		"a lack of restraint is a sign of weakness."
