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From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Subject: Re: Single European Language
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References: <3s1ur4$66o@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <DAEDrM.CJD@cwi.nl> <3s3sm9$83f@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <DAI5IB.nL@kroete2.freinet.de> <DAIHD7.4zG@ftel.co.uk> <DUNCAN.95Jun21111135@lightning.eee.strath.ac.uk> <3sa0g1$7a3@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 01:15:27 GMT
Lines: 111

This is a followup to a few different articles in this thread; that is why
it is as long as it is.

In article <3s3sm9$83f@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) writes:
 > > I think a few hundred copies is indeed the limit for University textbooks;
 > > especially for those in specialized fields.  How many students in the
 > > Netherlands are doing anything serious in Number Theory?
 > 
 > Less than need a basic text book for Algebra, Analysis or Probability,
 > I suppose, but you would appear to be in a better position to answer
 > that question. If you are in a university town, perhaps you could
 > ask local academic bookshops about their sales and give us some facts
 > rather than just rhetorical questions.
 > 
Good, some facts.  When I went to university most textbooks I had to order
because they were not in stock.  That does not suggest a big turnover to me.
(BTW, this was in Amsterdam with two universities.)  About students doing
anything serious currently in Number Theory:  I think I have met most of
them.  Some time ago there was a serious series of number theoretic seminars 
in Leiden.  The number of students attending you could count on at most
two hands; at least one of them was studying at the University of Amsterdam.
(Note: the seminars where intended for students.)  It occurs frequently that
students are doing some courses at other universities because the course
is not given at their own university.
...
 > > Does the UK government in any financial way support publishing text
 > > books for students?  If not why not?  And why should the Dutch
 > > government give that support?
 > 
 > Perhaps it's not necessary in the UK.

Which means penalizing the Dutch for living in a community with a small
language.
...
 > I think English should in most cases not be treated as a foreign
 > language in Wales (i.e. teach English and perhaps a few other subjects
 > in English even in Welsh-speaking schools), but let the decision be
 > made locally, not in London or Brussels.
 > 
OK: "I think English should in most cases not be treated as a foreign
language in the Netherlands (i.e. teach English and perhaps a few other
subjects in English even in Dutch-speaking schools), but let the
decision be made locally, not in Brussels."  [Sorry, no equivalent
with London.]

What is the difference?  And why?

In article <DAI5IB.nL@kroete2.freinet.de> erik@kroete2.freinet.de (Erik Corry) writes:
 > Another factor is that every field invents its own vocabulary and
 > jargon.  This is an important factor in computing. It is very
 > difficult to coordinate the translation of a phrase that has just
 > been invented.

This is not only an important factor in computing, in mathematics as
well, and many other sciences.  Moreover, in mathematics it does occur
that a term has a slightly different meaning when translated literally
to another language.  There is an example of an English term (which one
escapes me for the moment) that when translated literally in French
becomes a French term for a very similar (but not identical) concept.
Which means that a translator should be well-versed in the subtleties
of both languages in their scientific usage.  There is a reason that
many English speaking mathematicians talk about "eigenvalue" (when the
correct English translation is "characteristic value"), but many think
that it is called so after a German mathematician "Eigen".

 >                This is a problem in German computer literature,
 > where the same English word gets translated into different German
 > words by different translators.

Ah, not only German computer literature.  The same problem you can
see already in English literature.  Different groups inventing the
same name for slightly different concepts.  Sometimes you really need
to know where something is written before you understand the meaning.

In article <DAIHD7.4zG@ftel.co.uk> I.G.Batten@ftel.co.uk (Ian G Batten) writes:
 > Well, the Grenoble Pascal compiler, used on Multics, had a switch to put
 > all the keywords into French:
 > 	SI a = b ALORS
 > and so on.

It once was required in France (I do not know whether this still holds).
I have seen Algol 60 programs with French keywords.  Does make dissemination
not easier.

In article <DUNCAN.95Jun21111135@lightning.eee.strath.ac.uk> duncan@lightning.eee.strath.ac.uk (Duncan THOMSON) writes:
 > erik@kroete2.freinet.de (Erik Corry) writes:
 > > I heard that in the Netherlands you need special permission to write
 > > a natural science PhD in Dutch.
 > IMHO, if this is true, it is very sad.

Why?  You think you get better dissemination if it is in Dutch?  On the
other hand, on some universities the defense is in Dutch.  Which gives
some problems for some students.

In article <3sa0g1$7a3@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) writes:
 > (Mathematical ability does not always cooccur with linguistic
 > ability. I've known some very good mathematicians who would
 > probably have been forced to go into some other field had it
 > not been possible for them to receive their mathematical
 > education through the medium of their own native tongue.)

Perhaps.  But note, the textbooks are in English; the courses are in Dutch.
Moreover I know a few mathematicians whose English is far from perfect
(and some renowned as well).  The current lingua franca in mathematics,
computing and a few more is English.  Not the Queens English at all times;
perhaps pidgin English?  At least in conversation; and it works.

This is already getting far too long; and that in sci.lang.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
