Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.esperanto
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!news.mathworks.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!donh
From: donh@netcom.com (Don HARLOW)
Subject: Re: One point against Esperanto
Message-ID: <donhD62v28.Kp5@netcom.com>
Organization: Esperanto League for North America, Inc.
References: <794976261snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> <795410079snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> <donhD5vAIE.rD@netcom.com> <D5wsoB.816@nntpa.cb.att.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 02:32:32 GMT
Lines: 68
Sender: donh@netcom5.netcom.com

jsf@mink.mt.att.com (Jay Fishman) skribis en lastatempa afisxo <D5wsoB.816@nntpa.cb.att.com>:
>In article <donhD5vAIE.rD@netcom.com>, Don HARLOW <donh@netcom.com> wrote:
>>philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk skribis en lastatempa afisxo <795410079snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk>:
>>
>(snip)				(tondetita)
>S-ro Harlow:
>>In another posting, Konrad Hinsen points out that you really should learn 
>>Esperanto terms by their definitions, not by their supposed English 
>>equivalents. This is almost an absolute necessity for words like "droni" 
>>= "to drown" -- unless you learn that "droni" = "sufokigxi en fluidajxo", 
>>you will probably never figure out why "mi dronis" is right and "mi 
>>dronis la katidojn" is wrong.
>>
>S-ro Phillip:
>>>Is this dictionary wrong? If so, can anyone recommend a better one.
>>
>S-ro Harlow:
>>Peter Benson's _Comprehensive English-Esperanto Dictionary_, available 
>>from ELNA for $26.95 (hardback) or $19.95 (paperback). For those who 
>>doubt the existence of this work, I held a copy of the hardback in my 
>>hand yesterday afternoon.
>>
>
>Although it is supposed to be comprehen-  Kvankam la vortaro de Welles estas
>sive, Wells' Dictionary does not state    supozeble ampleksa, gxi ne indikas
>when a given verb is transitive or        la transitivecon pri iu ajn verboj.
>intransitve. This is what I find so       Tia manko en la vortaro tre frustigas.
>frustrating about the dictionary.         Mi ne komprenas, kial oni la simplajn 
>I do not understand why these simple      signetojn ne uzis, precipe pro 
>little indentifications were not noted    preskaux cxiuj da verboj en la angla
>considering that almost every verb in	  havas ambaux ecoj. Mi nun havas 
>English can have both attributes. But     manieron kontroli la transitiveco
>now that I have a copy of the PV, I       de iu verbo cxar mi jxus ricevis 
>now have a way to check the transit-      ekzempleron de PV.
>ivity of a given verb.
>
>Does Benson's dictionary indicate         Cxu la vortaro de BENSON indikas
>the transitivity of a root?               la transitivecon de cxiuj da radikoj?
>
I would stick with PV as much as           Mi kiel eble plej multe fidelus 
possible -- it is always better to use     al PV -- cxiam estas pli bone 
a dictionary _in_ the language, as long    uzi vortaron _en_ la lingvo, 
as you can understand it. As for Benson,   almenaux se vi povas kompreni 
I quote (pp. 3-4):                         gxin. Rilate Benson, mi citas 
                                           (p. 3-4):

Many ethnic languages (including English) often use a verb in the same 
form in both a transitive and an intransitive sense. Although it is 
essential to observe this distinction in Esperanto, bilingual Esperanto 
dictionaries and textbooks often fail to indicate in their translations 
whether a given Esperanto verb is transitive or intransitive. As a 
result, one of the most common errors by users of Esperanto is to use a 
transitive verb root in an intransitive sense, or vice versa, without the 
appropriate affix "-ig^-" or "-ig-", or to use one of those affixes 
redundantly.

Esperanto verbs are therefore marked in the CEED by either "[tr]" or 
"[int]" to indicate respectively a transitive or intransitive verb. Those 
few Esperanto verb roots which may be used either transitively or 
intransitively without adding an affix are marked "[tr, int]". Forms 
ending in either "-igi" or "-ig^i" are _not_ thus marked, however, since, 
these are _always_ transitive or intransitive, respectively.

-- 
Don HARLOW			donh@netcom.com
Esperanto League for N.A.       elna@netcom.com (800) 828-5944
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/el/elna/elna.html         Esperanto
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/do/donh/donh.html 
