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From: jqb@netcom.com (Jim Balter)
Subject: Re: Putnam reviews Penrose.
Message-ID: <jqbDBou5x.9B@netcom.com>
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References: <3ss4sm$cjd@mp.cs.niu.edu> <3ts3kf$aa3@netnews.upenn.edu> <1995Jul12.164615.18813@netlabs.com> <3u3955$lak@netnews.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 04:08:21 GMT
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In article <3u3955$lak@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Matthew P Wiener <weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <1995Jul12.164615.18813@netlabs.com>, lwall@netlabs (Larry Wall) writes:
>>In article <3ts3kf$aa3@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>>Matthew P Wiener <weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>: Very good.  _You_ did a good job.  Perl sucks at math, either way.
>
>>So does the interstate highway system, which nevertheless computes
>>a rather interesting function.
>
>The context--lest Larry let everyone else think I was insulting his
>creation--was Jim Balter wrote a perl 1-liner to output "Con(ZF)",
>and expected this to be impressive.

I did?  I thought I was simply pointing out that your definition of "see" was
faulty, by pointing out absurd consequences of it.  (I would call you a liar,
Matthew, but for that you would have to know that your false statements are
false, and of that I am having more and more doubt).  Of course, since we *all
know* what "see" means, there's no need to define it, is there?  Especially if
this lets us subtlely (or not so subtlely) shift this meaning to deny the
property of others when we wish to.

>Had the interstate highway system been designed to spell out, when
>viewed from a certain satellite height, "Kilroy was here", no one
>would attribute great spelling abilities to the highway system.
>
>Similarly, had the highway system spelled out "Killroy wuz hear", no
>one would have attributed bad spelling abilities to it either.

Perhaps a better understanding of just what *does* cause us to attribute
such characteristics would make clear the sorts of fallacies that riddle
this discussion.

>>			         But is reality a formal system?
>>If you can decide that, you can decide a lot of other things.
>
>I have asked some people who insisted that interaction with reality
>was a loophole in the Lucas/Penrose argument, just what model of
>reality they were working with.  This question was generally ducked,
>and I got no good answers.  Some even called it irrelevant, as if
>there were some obvious magic trick that did all the interaction.
>
>I recall Professor Minksy was the only person to take it seriously.

As I recall, Rickert ducked it and Minsky addressed it, and most others
said nothing either way.  But then, you have a habit (not at all rare on
the net) of conflating the opinions of people who disagree with you.
-- 
<J Q B>

