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Article 1555 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Zeleny (was Re: Searle
Message-ID: <1991Nov25.103050.5868@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 25 Nov 91 15:30:47 GMT
References: <MATT.91Nov24000158@physics.berkeley.edu> <1991Nov24.195230.5843@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Nov24.224724.2149@arizona.edu>
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In article <1991Nov24.224724.2149@arizona.edu> 
bill@NSMA.AriZonA.EdU (Bill Skaggs) writes:

BS:
>  I've been keeping quiet, hoping that this argument would simply
>die out, but it doesn't seem inclined to do so, so here goes:

I applaud your courage.

>In article <1991Nov24.195230.5843@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>Pray tell, what part of the computer hardware or software could
>>make it stand for something outside the machine, as signs used by humans
>>stand for things in virtue of their meanings?

BS:
>  The answer is quite simple.  Any computer interacting with the
>world outside the machine is going to need symbols for things
>outside the machine.  For example, a computer manipulating a
>robot arm will have symbols for the parts of the arm and their
>positions.  A computer playing chess will have symbols for the
>pieces and their locations.

An arm is a part of the machine; it's not too hard to internalize the
relevant part of the semantical relation, since the object denoted by the
terms of the internal code is physically connected to the machine, and
controlled by it.  Try programming a chess-playing computer to recognize
and identify a piece belonging to an arbitrary chess set, as humans can.

BS:
>  Arguments such as Searle's and Penrose's and Zeleny's are 
>essentially theological.  They all assume that humans have
>one or another mystic power.  Penrose assumes that humans have
>infallible intuitions for mathematical "truth".  Searle
>assumes that human brains have unspecified "causal powers".
>Zeleny assumes that humans are capable of infinite recursion
>(which seems to be part of "denoting", as he defines it).

Penrose argues that humans have mathematical intuitions; Searle argues for
causal powers of human brains.  I argue that any system capable of denoting
must in some way be capable of infinite recursion.  Can you tell the
difference between an assumption and an argument?

BS:
>  I see no reason to think that humans are capable of any of
>these things.  Zeleny says there is empirical evidence that
>humans can "denote".  I wish he would give some of it.  Let
>us please have one single concrete example, rather than this
>haze of philosophical jargon.

What did you call me?

>	-- Bill
>
>things


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: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
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