From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!kmc Tue Nov 19 11:09:00 EST 1991
Article 1197 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!kmc
>From: kmc@netcom.COM (Kevin McCarty)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Animal Intelligence vs Human Intelligence
Message-ID: <1991Nov05.084137.29880kmc@netcom.COM>
Date: 5 Nov 91 08:41:37 GMT
References: <37311@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Oct24.234823.7560@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> <37443@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Oct31.235402.12739@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> <37658@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Nov02.075827.27740kmc@netcom.COM> <37713@shamash.cdc.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 41

map@u02.svl.cdc.com (Mark Peters) writes:

>To claim that Washoe has the concept of lying is a leap well beyond 
>what we know about Washoe and this incident, and also beyond what
>we know about the concept of "lying."  

I'm not sure what you mean by "has the concept" of lying; 
I claim no such thing on behalf of Washoe, who, I believe, has no
more "concept" of tools or signs, and yet learns to use both
with admirable facility.  I do suggest that she conceived and told
a lie: she imagined a situation which she knew not to be true,
and told it for the purpose of having it taken for the truth.

>The concept of "lying"
>presupposes the concepts of honesty (lying is NOT being honest), virtue

Not at all.  Any dolt who can understand and use words will tell the
truth for no other reason than it does not occur to him not to, not
because he "has the concept" of honesty (whatever that means) or
strives toward virtue.  People usually tell the truth because that's
what comes naturally.  To lie requires significant mental effort of
imagination and calculation.

>(honesty is a type of virtue), and value (what virtue aims at achieving).
>In addition, a whole bunch of epistemological concepts are presupposed,
>including "logic," "reason," and "volition."  We don't have any reason

No, there's no epistemology about it.  A good lie is a good story.
Storytelling does not truck with "logic" or "reason". It's fantasy.

>to believe that Washoe has any of these concepts, all of which she would
>have to grasp in some terms before she could grasp "lying."

And I don't have any reason to believe that all these sophisticated
philosophical underpinnings are prerequisites to lying.
If animals can be stimulated to exhibit apparent lying behavior,
if you will, by such simple mechanisms as perceptual pain avoidance,
how on earth did similar behavior in humans get to be so complicated?
-- 
Kevin McCarty                   kmc@netcom.COM
                                {amdahl,claris}!netcom!kmc


