From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!brauer!zeleny Mon Dec 16 11:01:14 EST 1991
Article 2050 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Xref: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca rec.arts.books:11464 sci.philosophy.tech:1383 comp.ai.philosophy:2050
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!brauer!zeleny
>From: zeleny@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Zeleny (was Re: Searle
Summary: symbols, ad nauseam
Message-ID: <1991Dec11.184935.6446@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 11 Dec 91 23:49:33 GMT
References: <1991Dec8.180409.6324@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Dec9.161328.16412@cherokee.uswest.com> <12637@pitt.UUCP>
Followup-To: sci.pataphysics
Organization: Dada
Lines: 60
Nntp-Posting-Host: brauer.harvard.edu

In article <12637@pitt.UUCP> 
geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:

>In article <1991Dec9.161328.16412@cherokee.uswest.com> 
>ken@dakota (Kenny Chaffin) writes:

>>In article <1991Dec8.180409.6324@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

KAC:
>>>>	Right, but that is only a level of abstraction, a method of 
>>>>communicating, and a shared semantics. It has no bearing on the fact that
>>>>symbols either represent something or not.

MZ:
>>>Symbolic representation presupposes semantics.

KC:
>>	Does it?
>>	Surely animal's have symbols in their minds of things, does this also
>>include having semantics? Bee's for instance communicate with one another 
>>through a dance. Do bees attach meaning to the various "words" and symbols in
>>their dance?

I repeat: if they communicate, they attach meanings to their utterances,
whatever form they might take.

GB:
>I think the only symbol involved here is our confabulating one in
>trying to understand what the bees do.  The bees have semantics without
>symbols.  The dance conveys a meaning, but I don't see the justification
>in calling the dance a symbol.  I think it is very unlikely that the
>dance could be the subject of introspection by the bee either.

I repeat again: according to the technical definition, a symbol is an
iconic or a substitutive sign, something that stands for something else,
*aliquid stat pro aliquo*.  Your personal definition of the term is
irrelevant.  If the dance conveys a meaning, the justification for calling
it a symbol is in the fact that it ipso facto stands for that meaning in a
semantically relevant way.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
>geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

				    Truer words were never spoken.


`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                                   :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139           (617) 661-8151            :
: email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET            :
:                                                                    :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`


