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Article 2188 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: freitag@elrond.toppoint.de (Claus Schoenleber)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,sci.philosophy.tech
Subject: Re: Semantic Conventions
Message-ID: <kaP2cB1w164w@elrond.toppoint.de>
Date: 16 Dec 91 11:19:07 GMT
References: <1991Dec15.121816.6594@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Claus Schoenleber, Kiel, Germany (3-926986)
Lines: 119

zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

> In article <1Z7XcB2w164w@elrond.toppoint.de> 
> freitag@elrond.toppoint.de (Claus Schoenleber) writes:
> 
> >zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
> 
> >>freitag@elrond.toppoint.de (Claus Schoenleber) writes:
> 
> CS:
> >>>Maybe "meaning" is association between a (more or less) complex symbol and
> >>>some environmental event. Now, can't that be done by a sufficient complex
> >>>syntactical rule system? There is nothing said about whether the acting
> >>>machine is intelligent or simulates, it would behave like an intelligent
> >>>system.
> 
> MZ: 
> >>How would the "meaning" (environmental association) of the explicans, i.e.
> >>"a sufficient complex syntactical rule system" be given, except by more
> >>complex syntactical rule systems, etc.?  So sorry, but meaning is still not
> >>syntactical.
> 
> CS:
> >I tried to get some echo about the term "meaning". It is still undefined in
> >that discussion.
> 
> Meaning is what a term stands for.  There is no other definition.
> 

That is not enough for scientific research. There is need for a formal
definition. So we have to look for that other definition.

> SC:
> >Why is it necessary to seperate "syntax" from "semantics"? You don't seperat
> >time from space, eh? They are different, o.k., but they belong to each other
> 
> For the same reason one separates form from content.

So, you can carry content without any form? Seems a very dualistic conception.

> 
> CS:
> >1. How can you get semantics without any form of syntax?
> 
> Mind reading.

Tell me how. And whose.

> 
> CS:
> >2. How can you get syntax without any form of semantics?
> 
> Chess.

O.k., so you're playing that game in a Chess Room?

> 
> CS:
> >"syntax" and "semantics" are neither equal nor independent from each other.
> 
> Agreed.
> 

Thank you.

> CS:
> >There is a relation between syntax and semantics, and the question is: which
> 
> For a suggestion of an answer, try an elementary course in model theory.

Thanks, I had to fill up the last two weekly hours in my time table. ;-)

If there really that relation had been found, then why is there that discussion
about this topic?

> 
> CS:
> >But still there is my question: What is "meaning"? While there is no proper
> >definition, it seems, that "semantics" or "meaning" are mysterious lifebelts
> >preventing humans from being drowned in the stormy sea of "mindless machines
> >;-)
> 
> See above.
> 

I don't see anything sufficient there...

> >Regards,
> >
> >Claus.
> 
> cheers,
> mz
> 

vy 73 and 55 2 U,

Claus.

> >p.s.:
> >
> >There is no way to understand semantics, you get only used to it. (Couldn't
> >resist; beg your pardon, Mr. v. Neumann!) ;-)
> 
> I submit that Johnny knew his math very well indeed.
> 

Indeed. I suppose, that's one reason why he's got famous, isn't it?



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Claus Schoenleber                      freitag@elrond.toppoint.de
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        "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is 
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