Newsgroups: comp.ai.alife
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!MathWorks.Com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!prodigal.psych.rochester.edu!stevens
From: stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Greg Stevens)
Subject: Re: H Maturana's definition of life?
Message-ID: <1994Sep12.201430.2179@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
Keywords: Maturana self-organising crystal dissipation of energy
Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: prodigal.psych.rochester.edu
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
References: <pvh.1.001128F7@slfoo.cybernet.za> <350o2j$baj@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <351t91$1co@highway.LeidenUniv.nl>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 20:14:30 GMT
Lines: 52

In <351t91$1co@highway.LeidenUniv.nl> frits@rulglj.LeidenUniv.nl (Frits Daalmans) writes:
>C. Titus Brown (brown@deneb.krl.caltech.edu) wrote:
>: In article <pvh.1.001128F7@slfoo.cybernet.za>,
>: Peter van Heusden <pvh@slfoo.cybernet.za> wrote:

>: >With all the debate about a definiton of life going here... what do people 
>: >think of the definition offered by Maturana in 'Autopoesis and cognition'? 
>: >Basically it argues that any self-organising system is alive...

No no no.  The definition of "autopoiesis" -- which Maturana and Varela
deemed necessary and sufficient for life -- has to do with self-PRODUCTION

An autopoietic machine is a series of production componants in a system
characterized by OPERATIONAL CLOSURE where the function of the production
componants forms a closed web -- its function is to PRODUCE itself.

>: Then sandpiles and crystals are alive, since they're both self-organized
>: systems.

>Could we make the distinction by adding the criterium that something that's
>ali(f,v)e should also dissipate (information, energy) ? In other words,
>that the system does not even *try to* become static?

Is the primary or just something that happens to happen as a result of the
process of life? H&M's definition doesn't contain dissipative properties as
intrinsic, though it may emerge as a functional upshot of their definition.

>If we assume for the rest of this posting (flames appreciated), that this
>dissipation criterium is necessary, we then need a conceptual link
>between the properties of self-reproduction, self-organization, and
>dissipation of energy. Ouch! What references do you have handy for me? 
>Maturana and Varela?

M&V do form the conceptual link -- because the property is self-production,
both REproduction and self-maintanence are subcatagories of the same
process of life -- so reproduction, as well as adaptation and LEARNING
become instrinsic properties of living things under the
autopoiesis criterion.

Maturana, H. and F. Varela. [1972] 1980.  Autopoiesis and Cognition:
   The Realization of the Living.  Dordrecht: Reidel.

___________________________. 1987.  The Tree of Knowledge: Boston: Shambala.

These are just a couple for introductory purposes....

Greg Stevens

greg@santafe.edu

stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu

