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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: "plural" you
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References: <52pmh8$t5@news.alaska.edu> <325B70F4.54CD@tower.york.ac.uk> <542h16$3vk@hermes.ucd.ie> <3266E677.62C0@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:53:46 GMT
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In article <3266E677.62C0@worldnet.att.net>,
 <Aethelrede@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Dara Connolly wrote:
>> >I am from Liverpool in the UK and have noticed that the strong dialect we
>> have has evolved the artificial
>> >'plural' plural "youse". This raises the question of whether we do have a
>> real need to distinguish between the
>> >second person singular and plural.

	I've also heard "youse" from the lips of the Irish.  Various
accounts credit them with bringing it to the US.  It's still most 
common in areas of traditionally heavy Irish settlement (e.g. the North-
east, particularly NYC).

>> >	I am familiar with various English variants on 'youse' (never 
>been to Oz), and 'y'all' and 'you'ns' (but not 'all y'all') in the US.  
>It might even be a linguistic trend towards a new recognition of the 
>difference between 'thou' and 'you' again in mainstream English 
>dialects.  

	So far, no one has mentioned the particular variant I grew up
with:  you guys [irrespective of the gender of the addressees].  I 
didn't really become conscious of this usage until I went to camp in
Texas, where they unfairly accused us of saying "youse guys."  In re-
turn, we unfairly accused them of using "y'all" as a singular.

>I think that if the usage is showing up, then there is a need 
>for it.  

Well, there is definitely as *use* for it, I don't know if I would
call it a *need*.  Before I started studying linguistics, I had 
pretty dogmatic preconceptions of what languages did and didn't need
and I couldn't understand how, say, the Chinese could get by without
inflected plurals.  Now I'm quite comfortable with languages (like
Korean and Japanese) that largely dispense with *pronouns* and, at
the same time, I sometimes wonder how we get by without an inclusive/
exclusive "we" distinction or a word directly corresponding to 
"beziehungsweise".

>If the Germanic distinction of 'respectful' use of the plural 
>(Sie rather than Du) returns, think of the added possibility for subtle 
>insult that would return to English 'If thou thou'st him some 
>thrice, it shall not be amiss:'.
>	Sounds like a good thing to me:  how about youse out there?

	It'd be appreciated, but, somehow, I don't see how a culture
where the custon of addressing people with a respectful title and a
surname is in retreat on all fronts is going to find any need for 
such subtle distinctions anytime soon.


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
