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From: zohrab_p@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Peter Zohrab)
Subject: Re: <hao3> = good (Re: sexist language in Chinese...)
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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 19:12:45 GMT
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I am in no way an expert in the origins of Chinese characters, and if lots of
popular books say that hao3 originated as woman+child, then it is only natural
that I should believe them.

After all, you all believe all the Feminist propaganda that the Media shove
down your throats about how women are "oppressed", don't you ?  You haven't
actually ever *thought* about the other side of the picture, have you ?

My main point, with respect to sexist language in Chinese, is that Masculists
can also find examples of sexist language that discriminates against men,
  if they get paid to look for them --
the way that Feminists are paid (by grants, scholarships, etc.) to look for
sexist language that discriminates against men.

Peter Zohrab

In article <432qu2$mo2@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
Hung J Lu <hlu@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> Patrick Chew (patchew@uclink2.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> : >Junze Zhou <jzhou@nyx.cs.du.edu> wrote:
> : >Originally, Hao means woman. That's why Hao is composed of Nyu and Zi,
> : >which means woman, not woman and child. Any one who thinks Hao is
> : >"woman plus child" and extends that to "mother and child" and then to
> : >custody battle, sexist, etc. should refrain his imagination.
> : ...
> : 	NO.. in any classical construction, the reading would end up as 
> : woman and child, NOT as "woman" alone... nyu3zi means "woman" only in 
> : modern Mandarin, NOT the Chinese of the ShuoWenJieZi period.
> : -Patrick
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> So I flipped open the heavy volumes of "Shuo Wen Jie Zi bla bla..". 
> And to my amazement, the etymology of the word <hao3> turned out 
> to be much more complicated than what I thought.
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | One thing first: forget about the (wife)+(children) explanation. |
> | The <zi3> symbol on the right-hand side of <hao3> does not       |
> | mean "son" nor "child". Also, the initial meaning of <hao3> was  |
> | "beautiful female". <Hao3> came to mean "good" only much later.  |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 
> OK, now the detailed story. <Hao3> is a word that existed long before
> Han dynasty, we are talking about Zhou dynasty era, i.e., near the 
> beginning of the Chinese writing. 
> 
> The <zi3> symbol existed long long ago. Here is the modern rendering 
> of it. 
> 
>         ----+
>            /
>       ----+----       <zi3>
>           |
>           |
>          \|
> 
> This is a ideographic (xiang4 xing2) character, roughly representing
> a little baby wrapped in swaddling clothes (clothes used to wrap 
> little babies and to carry them on one's back). Therefore, the initial
> meaning of <zi3> was just a little baby.
> 
> By the time <hao3> was coined, <zi3> already had acquired secondary
> meanings. Guess what was other meanings of <zi3>? Well, it has came 
> to signify "things male" ("yang2" as in Ying-Yang), it has came to 
> signify "person". But these were not the meaning used in coining the 
> character <hao3>. Surprise of surprises: <hao3> also meant "handsome 
> male", along the lines of Harrison Ford or Arnold Schwarzenegger. 
> 
> Therefore, the name "Confucius" <Kong3 Zi3>, basically meant the
> "handsome Johny", or something like that. :-) Anyway, <zi3> came
> to be a very elegant way to address a male person. 
> 
> The character for "female" <nu"3> existed also long long ago, and
> it always meant "female". 
> 
>           /
>       ---/-----
>         /   /
>         \  /         <nu"3>
>          \/
>          /\
>         /  \
> 
> The character for <hao3> is obtained by juxtaposing <nu"3> with <zi3>:
> 
>           /     ____
>       ---/-----    / 
>         /   /     |
>         \  /  ----+---     <hao3>
>          \/       |
>          /\       |
>         /  \     \|
> 
> By the time this character was coined, this character roughly symbolized
> "a woman as beautiful as a beautiful guy". Ha! That is, the concept 
> of female beauty was borrowed from male beauty (kind of strange from
> modern point of view, I know.) And <hao3> came to mean beautiful female.
> 
> And afterward, <hao3> came to mean "things good". But this is already
> much later.
> 
> At no moment was it a symbol for (wife)+(children). This interpretation
> is a modern distortion, shall we say, a Western Capitalists' interpretation?
> :-)  (anyway, feminists can see sexism wherever they want to...) (OK,
> only kidding a exaggerating a bit here...)
> 
> So, that't the tale behind the <hao3> character. I think we should try 
> to disperse the false interpretation on the etymology of this character. 
> Much like we should disperse the myth about the zillion Eskimo words 
> for "snow". The only catch is: it will take decades before everyone 
> gets the message.
> 
> Of course, if anything that I have said is incorrect, I'd appreciate
> correction.
> 
> -- Ekki
> 
> (soc.culture.taiwan and soc.culture.china added to sci.lang)


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