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From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Subject: Re: talmid and talmud
Message-ID: <D41oCp.1oo@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK
References: <3hea08$cia@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 14:02:47 GMT
Lines: 53

In article <3hea08$cia@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> deardorj@ucs.orst.edu (James Deardorff) writes:
>I've been trying to determine about how far back in time the word
>"talmud" extends within Hebrew or Aramaic.  Not being knowledgeable
>in the area, my first clue so far comes from the Encyc. Judaica,
>which mentions that "talmud" had the meaning of teachings received by
>one or more pupils.

Yes, and it's a regularly formed Hebrew word.

  <ta-1-2-U-3>: a pattern for deverbal nouns
     <l m   d>: `learn; (causative) teach'

It makes sense for it to mean `teaching' (or `teachee').

>My second clue, from a Bible concordance, is that "talmid" means
>"pupil" and occurred as far back in time as when Deuteronomy was written.

And the Akkadian <talmId-u(m)> `disciple' occurred long before any part
of the Torah was written.

>Would the similar word "talmud" then have derived from "talmid" and
>also date to many centuries BCE?

It's not derived from it.  The two are cognates; <talmUd> is Hebrew,
while <talmId> appears to be Aramaic.  The Hebrew pattern <ta12U3>
corresponds to <ta12I3> in Akkadian, Aramaic and Arabic; the latter
also occurs in a small number of Aramaic loanwords in Hebrew, but I
don't know how often it coexists with a <ta12U3>-noun of the same
or a different meaning.

>Is the change in ending from "id" to "ud" significant,

No, in so far as there doesn't seem to be a regular semantic
opposition between <ta12I3>-nouns and <ta12U3>-nouns.

Yes, inasmuch as there is an (idiosyncratic?) opposition in this case,
since the two words have come to mean different things in Hebrew.

(Note that those are not endings: the root is <lmd> and the transfix
is <ta-I-> or <ta-U->.)

>or would the two words appear the same in ancient print?

Never mind ancient *print*, they would even appear the same in
*manuscripts* written before the invention of _matres lectionis_
(that is, both would be written as <tlmd> before they started being
written as <tlmyd> and <tlmwd>).

-- 
`I'm sendin a flood tae pit an end tae it aw.  But dinny worry yersel, Noah.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk)    (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,   Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
