Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ncar!uchinews!ellis!deb5
From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: German past tense
Message-ID: <1994Dec30.035431.3050@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System)
Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <bpcD15Jz1.889@netcom.com> <3d9p7a$p09@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3dut2s$f92@majestix.uni-muenster.de>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 03:54:31 GMT
Lines: 30

	The usage of the so-called "present perfect" and the "simple
past" (Perfekt[um], Imperfekt[um]/Praeterit[um]) in German varies a bit 
by dialect.  In most of Southern Germany, where apocope has made 
some forms of the simple past homophones with the present-tense forms 
(e.g. [er] sagte"he said" --> sagt, cf. [er] sagt "he says"), the simple 
past is obsolete and the perfect takes over.  (According to the dtv _At-
las zur deutschen Sprache_, this dates back to the 15th century; they
show the boundary as running some miles north of the Main River.)

	To my ears, "Ich hab ihn gesehen" and "Ich sah ihn" are virtually 
synonymous, but since learned German in SW Germany, I would rarely say 
the latter, atlthough I would write it.

	Those of you who know French will see a parallel in the way the
pass'e compos'e has edged out the pass'e simple in colloquial speech.
It's interesting to note that the opposite is happening in American
English, which uses the simple past in contexts where British English
prefers the perfect.  For example, Americans say, "Did you see Tarrantino's
latest flick?" "Yeah, I saw _Pulp Fiction_" where British and prescripti-
vist American usage prefer "Have you seen..." "Yes, I've seen..."
 
	In any case, German prescriptivists might well tell you otherwise,
but in modern  spoken German, I don't think there really is a distinction 
between simple past and perfect.

	I hope this helps answer the original poster's question.
-- 
	Daniel "Da" von Brighoff (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /\
	5242 S. Hyde Park Blvd., Apt. 303		    /__\
	Chicago, IL  60615				   /____\
