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From: rdd@usa1.com (Aaron J. Dinkin)
Subject: Re: The phonemic transcription problem
Message-ID: <rdd-3107960924320001@dmn1-38.usa1.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:24:32 -0500
References: <4tac7o$r22@thighmaster.admin.lsa.umich.edu> <DvAsBt.4ow@tigadmin.ml.com> <31fdf844.109561698@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <rdd-3007961124560001@dmn1-51.usa1.com> <31fef195.173103662@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Lines: 117

In article <31fef195.173103662@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw6sxq@ix.netcom.com
(Bob Cunningham) wrote:

> rdd@usa1.com (Aaron J. Dinkin) wrote:
> 
>      [Bob Cunningham said]
> 
> >>      As for "sod", "father", and "bought", I would represent the "o",
> >> "a", and "ou" by the same symbol because to me they are not only the
> >> same phoneme, but the same allophone.  I could transcribe them as
> >> /sAd/, /'fA D@r/, and /bAt/, but there's no way I can tell you what I
> >> mean by /A/.
> >
> >Of course there is. Pronounce the vowel you use in "sod", "father", and
> >"bought", and feel where the blade - that is, the middle - of your tongue
> >is, in terms of how close it is to the roof of your mouth, and how far
> >forward or back it is. (It's a front vowel if, when you close your mouth,
> >the blade of your tongue hits the alveolar ridge behind your teeth; it's a
> >central vowel if it hits the front of the hard palate; it's a back vowel
> >if it hits the back of the hard palate.)
> 
>      I addressed this point in my exchange with Avi Jacobson a few weeks
> ago when I said:
> 
> >> You could try to tell me what it means by describing
> >> the position of various parts of the tongue with respect to various
> >> parts of the palate, but this would get nowhere.  The human animal has
> >> not evolved with a necessity to be aware of its tongue position with
> >> respect to the palate, so I have only a vague idea where mine is when
> >> I say "caught" or "court".  
> 
>      AJ replied:
> 
> >Bob, there is a world of difference between your first assertion ("The 
> >human animal has not evolved...") and your second ("_I_ have only a vague 
> >idea....").  The human animal has not evolved with a necessity to be 
> >aware of the secrets of its internal anatomy, yet doctors converse freely 
> >about anatomy with no need for pictures.  
> 
>      I didn't respond to that, but if I had I would have said that there
> is a world of difference between being able to visualize where the
> spleen is with respect to the liver and being able to move one's own
> spleen closer to the liver.  I am not aware of where my tongue is with
> respect to my palate when I pronounce certain vowels.  Having spent a
> considerable amount of time trying to fathom the mysteries of the IPA
> table, I can visualize the position of the tongue for vowels of various
> descriptions, but to me it's a long way from there to being able to
> place my own tongue in those positions or being able to say where it is
> when I pronounce a vowel.

I can relate to this, actually, to a minor degree. The IPA has something
called "pharyngeal fricatives", and I have never been able to figure out
how these sounds are produced since all I know about the pharynx is where
it is on a chart of the respiratory system. I could no more produce a
pharyngeal sound than you could make your jocular suggestion of a
splenojecoral sound. However, I think the tongue ought to be easier.

> >The human animal has not 
> >evolved with a necessity to be aware of the molecular structure of the 
> >universe, yet chemists converse about this with no need for electronic 
> >microscope photographs.  And when two phoneticians describe a sound, they 
> >know exactly what they mean.
> 
>      Again, I think with a little more work I could bring myself to the
> point where I know exactly what they mean; I don't know whether I would
> ever get to the point where I could then place my tongue in the position
> necessary to make the sound.

Try saying "ee-oo-ee-oo-ee-oo" ([i u i u i u]) in rapid succession and
feel how your tongue moves back and forth. Memorize those positions. Then,
if someone asks you to say, for example, [u"], (after looking on an IPA
chart to see where it is), slide your tongue forward a bit but stop before
it reaches the [i] position. I admit that this is harder than it sounds
and I'm not quite sure I can do it well yet, but it comes with practice.

> >> No written description of sounds can have any meaning for me unless it is 
> >> anchored somehow in experienced audio renditions.
> 
>      Okay, I exaggerated; I have no trouble with descriptions involving
> things like position of the teeth with respect to the lips, lip
> rounding, degree of openness of the lips, and all the other things I can
> see in a mirror.  I have no problem with descriptions involving the
> position of the tip of the tongue with respect to the teeth or the
> alveolar ridge.  My problem is mainly with the position of the middle
> and the back of the tongue.  I don't sense where they are and I can't
> see them in a mirror when the sound I'm making allows only a small
> opening of the lips.

True. However, if you open your mouth wide and look in a mirror and say [&
A & A] &c., you'll be able to see very clearly how your tongue jumps back
and forth. It's manageable with [E O] also, though to a lesser extent. (If
you had the phoneme between /&/ and /A/, /a/, you'd be able to say [a] to
the mirror easily also and see the central tongue position, but front and
back are the main ones.)

> >How about experienced physical articulations? If you want to know what
> >phone Peter Jennings uses in "sore" and "bought", imitate his
> >pronunciation and feel where your tongue is.
> 
>      That goes right to the heart of the matter.  How do I *feel* where
> my tongue is?

With your index finger, if need be.

>      I'm sure that AD and AJ know vastly more than I do about this
> subject, so the thing for me to do is try harder to learn to follow
> their advice.  Maybe I just need more persistence in training myself to
> know where the back and middle of my tongue are.  It still seems to me,
> though, that it would be most helpful to have a recording relating
> audible sounds to the symbols in the IPA table.

It probably would. (I might be able to accomplish a pharyngeal phone if I
heard one!) I believe, now that you mention it, that there's a web site at
which you can do this, but it's all in French, and I don't have the URL.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

