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From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Subject: Re: Hercegovina
Message-ID: <DAHruI.2nF@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK
References: <Qs4vl4zYhLPU079yn@jagor.srce.hr> <3s1o46$l7s@agate.berkeley.edu> <IIWvl4zYhHrV079yn@jagor.srce.hr>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 21:58:38 GMT
Lines: 91

In article <IIWvl4zYhHrV079yn@jagor.srce.hr> Denis.Pleic@public.srce.hr writes:
[replying to Coby Lubliner]
>Although I must admit that my previous posting had high
>(nationalistic) overtones, I still cannot but observe that
>your reply was no more "scientific" or argumented than mine

The simple argument is that Serbian and Croatian aren't different enough
to be considered separate languages, and that has nothing to do with the
political situation in the part of the planet where most speakers live.

>- even less so, sice I said that the OFFICIAL names of the 
>language(s) were "Croatian" and "Serbian", and got immediately
>labeled as "nationalistic primitive".

There's nothing wrong with the names `Croatian' and `Serbian'.
You got yourself flamed because you objected against the name
`Serbo-Croat'.  Yes, we know that you dislike it, but we need
it, and we're not going to stop using it until we've found a
better one.

>In case you did not know, Croatia is an independent state, member 
>of the UN, with its OFFICIAL flag, OFFICIAL president, OFFICIAL 
>borders, and OFFICIAL name of the language.

All of that is very interesting, but has no relevance to this group.
Btw, Austria and Germany also have flags, presidents and borders, or
had them last I checked, but don't mind sharing a language.

>I think that, being a native Croat speaker, I have a right to decide
>how I shall call the language that I use, scientifically or not.

Oh, of course you do, -- just as the other side have the right
to refer to the same language by a different name.

>And I, for one, do not like my language to have a "SERB" denomination.

Fair enough.  We could come up with another name for it.  Thing is,
`the West South Slavic language which is not Slovene' is a little too
long for practical purposes.

>But, you said that in a conversation with a Croat you'd refer to 
>his language as "Croatian". Am I just too stupid, or do I really 
>smell an inconsistency there?

There is no inconsistency.  If the Croat prefers referring to the
language as Croatian and the Serb would rather call it Serbian, then
so be it.

>I'm just trying to say that you cannot always stick stubbornly to 
>a "scientific" attitude, regardless of what goes on around you.

Sure you can.  And you must.  (Without the quotation marks.)

>BTW, the "Serbo-Croat" name for the language has a long POLITICAL
>tradition and deep political overtones, too, since it was primarily 
>a political decision to call the language that way.

Very likely so; but we need a name for the language, and this one fits.
We wouldn't insist on using it if there were a better one.

>I don't know where do you take your information from - so off-handedly. 
>The analogy with US and UK English was really out of place.

Actually, it was a very good analogy.  (Though UK English is spoken
in a country which doesn't have an official president, or even an
unofficial one.  That's probably what prevents it from being awarded
the status of a language.)

>The Serbian language even uses another alphabet,

Irrelevant.  Different scripts do not different languages make.
(And Serbian is quite often written in Roman script.)

>not to mention the differences on the lexical level...

How does the difference in vocabulary between Croatian and Serbian
compare to the difference between British and American English?
(Here's an opportunity to exchange some arguments.)

>Do you speak Croatian? Or Serbian?
>Can you tell the difference between "hlace" and "caksire" [...]

I speak something which has often been accepted as Croatian by Croats
and as Serbian by Serbs.  I don't know it very well, though, and I've
never come across either _hlace_ or _caksire_.

-- 
`I'll gie ye a purple jaiket [...] an mebbe I'll make ye prime meenister.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk)    (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,   Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
