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From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Subject: Serbo-Croat (Re: Hungarian / Czecho-Slovakian...not!)
Message-ID: <D3112x.BGL@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK
References: <cagalj.1.00476293@mailer.uni-marburg.de> <D2xp7M.L4E@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <cagalj.3.002B17FC@???.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:06:29 GMT
Lines: 100

In article <cagalj.3.002B17FC@???.Uni-Marburg.DE> cagalj@???.Uni-Marburg.DE (Tomislav K. Cagalj) writes:
>In article <D2xp7M.L4E@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge, no one in power has ever suggested that
>>Czech and Slovak are not separate languages.  For the most part it's
>>very average people in the West who think that they aren't, misled
>>by the existence of a single political entity called Czechoslovakia.
>but they did in former yugoslavia, so i don't see your point.

My point is that the original poster, who mentioned a Czecho-Slovak
language, was unlikely to have got this notion from Yugoslav or any
other propaganda.  More likely he just wasn't too familiar with the
linguistic situation in Czechoslovakia.

>>Name two evident `particularities' (three for extra credit) which
>>support the idea that there is no Serbo-Croat language.
>hmmm....you demand proofs for distinct features of croat and serbian
>but do not support your diverging opinion...weird.

It's your opinion that is divergent, and consequently in need of support.
Mine is the one commonly accepted in linguistics.  (I'm on sci.lang, but
alt.uu.lang.misc doesn't sound like a name of a political forum either.)

Besides, I asked for distinct features which warrant their being
counted as separate languages, not just any odd distinct features.
That is, I want to see that Serbian and Croat are more different
than, say, two regional (make that national) varieties of English,
Spanish or Portuguese.

>anyway, i'll give you some: 
>01. the vocabulary - you'll find a great deal of idiomatic
>expressions and notions which can easily be classified as croat
>and serbian. since i don't want to write an esssay here,

You don't have to write an essay, but how great is the great deal?
Two thousand?  Ten thousand?  Twenty thousand?  How does their number
compare to the size of the entire lexicon?

>i'll leave it at "kruh", croat for "bread" - "hleb" is the serbian
>equivalent. "nogomet", croat for "soccer" - "fudbal" is the serbian
>equivalent and so forth.

You just made my point with that last example.  That game is called
`soccer' in US English, but in UK English it's called `football'.
Do I take it that you consider US English and UK English to be
different languages also?

>03. syntax - for example in the future form: in croat you say for
>" i will work" "radit cu" - in serbian you say "radicu".

There are differences of the same magnitude between US and UK English too.
(The UK use of plural verbs with singular collective nouns comes to mind.)
I'm not denying the fact that *some things* are different, I'm pointing
out that *virtually everything (else)* is the same.

>04. (to your surprise) dialects - in croatia you hve a number of autonomous 
>dialects, as in istria, dalmatia, slavonia and zagorje - the region around 
>zagreb. serbian has its own dialects.

Come to think of it, yes, I am mildly surprised that this is presented
as an argument, as if anything followed from it.

>05. writing/fonts - serbs employ the kyrillic alphabet, croats the latin.

This one won't fly, not on sci.lang in any case.  We keep languages
and writing systems separate here.

But I like the part about founts.  `The lecture will be in Garamond, but
simultaneous translation into Palatino and Baskerville will be provided.'

>>People have to come to terms with that, despite what others might think?
>>Who are those others, pray?  Gorillas?  Dolphins?
>as a matter of fact yes...ones like you, although i generally
>consider apes and dolphins to be rather intelligent.

So they are.  But nature can find some use for less intelligent
life forms also, so there's no need for you to feel left out,
even though evolution has little reason to be proud of you.

>dutch and german are different languages, too. or, to remain in the
>slavic area, slovak and slovene, if you prefer these...

So what?  Just because Dutch and German or Slovak and Slovene are
different languages, Serbian and Croat must be different too?

>i didn't consider this a flaming - sorry, if you tried at your best effort :))

No chance.  You aren't worth my best effort.  (Talking of which,
has anyone heard from Alvin H White of late?  :-))

>don't argue with a fool or a person watching may not spot the difference 

Yes, I've heard that, but I'm no inclined to worry.  The people
watching (the sci.lang readers) know me well enough, and you'll
never be so fortunate as to be mistaken for me by them.

-- 
`Don't know whit ye're bletherin aboot', said Peter.    (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk, iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,   Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
