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From: "Paul J. Kriha" <kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Hungarian / Czecho-Slovakian
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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 09:34:31 GMT
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rmk4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Robert Knippen) wrote:
>
> Regarding the two (at least) contributors who note that Czech and
> Slovak are not the same language, I want to make a comment about
> distinguishing related languages from each other.  We all (at least
> those of us who actually do linguistics) know how hard it is to
> distinguish related languages.  We all know that political and
> sociocultural considerations are at least as important as linguistic
> ones (as if there really _were_ linguistic guidelines--I really
> haven't seen any good ones.)  Thus, it seems to me reasonable to cut
> people some slack when they talk about Czecho-Slovak or Serbo-Croat.
> I mean, people get to make generalizations about Germanic or Romance
> all the time, and some of the relevant languages are pretty
> surprizingly different from each other (at least in some areas).  My
> point is that there is no final answer about what is a distinct
> language and what is a related dialect, and for some purposes, it
> makes perfect sense to group related lects.  So can't people just ease
> up a bit on this issue?  I mean, if you are a member of one of the
> relevant _ethnic_ groups, I'm sure the issue is important to you; but
> if you are also a linguist, you should be able to see that this is
> nothing like a resolved issue from a linguistic point of view, so this
> person really doesn't deserve criticism.
> 
> Before you flame me, you should know that I've argued in the past for 
> including sociocultural and political considerations in the definition
> of a language (as opposed to a dialect) in the sci.lang FAQ.  I'm quite
> well aware of all the arguments for the importance of language to
> cultural identity, etc. etc.  So don't bother.
> 
> 
> Robert Knippen
> r-knippen@uchicago.edu
> 

I am a member of one of the ethnic groups you are talking about.
I grew up in the Bohemian part of the country.
What I am going to say about the relationship between
Czech and Slovak languages is not governed by any social or
political considerations, I a don't give a stuffed monkey about
those. I am not a professional linguist but I have a good passive
knowledge of Slovak and very good working knowledge of Czech.
IMHO, I don't think that should automatically invalidate all my
arguments.

Unlike the name of Serbo-Croat which was banded around for various
reasons, there has never been a name Czecho-Slovak used for
a language by anybody except by the ignorant who also talk
about Swiss language confusing a language with a country.
Linguistically, C & S developed independently from the Old Slavic
as is the case with all other Slavic languages.
The split up occurred after the disintegration of the Great
Moravian Empire some 1300 years ago.

Only by the virtue of living in a bilingual country, being
regularly exposed to both languages on TV news and frequently
having to converse with people of both nationalities, I am
able to understand Slovak. I read and contribute to Czecho
-Slovak culture group but never in Slovak because I am not able to.
Like most of the Czechs I am able to speak selected phrases
in Slovak but the first sentence usually betrays me as a foreigner.
I am not able to write a single Slovak sentence without
making basic grammatical and spelling mistakes.  I have
never actively mastered the Slovak vocabulary and orthography.
On the cs culture group so far I have identify only one
truly bilingual Czech able to post in either language.
His family lived in Slovakia during his teenage years where
he received some of his schooling. There are probably greater
numbers of Slovaks able to speak and write good Czech. They
are usually the ones who studied at Czech universities.
There have been some discussions in the 18/19th century
lead by the leading linguists to affect some merger between
the languages. Usually it would involve forcing Czech-like-language
on the Slovaks, so it was doomed to failure.

I mention all this to illustrate how different these two
languages are, almost like Dutch and German.

Your post doesn't mention any literary evidence leading
you to your conclusions. I would love to read any of it.

Paul JK

Te precor dulcissime supplex!

