From: renzland@govonca.gov.on.ca (Peter Renzland) Subject: Re: Long Vowels: Macrons or Doubling (Was Re: Paakehaa ...) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 17:05:58 GMT pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff) writes: >I would be very interested in any references you might have on this >This is certainly an assertion which you should substantiate with some >references. >if you're going to claim that >vowel doubling has linguistic legitimacy for supremacy (other >than being pushed by a minority of linguists) then I think that >there are enough scholarly types reading this forum that the >evidence be given. I do not believe that unsubstantiated religious >type claims (especially those that also belittle macron users and >careless users) do anything to promote the language. How about this: From: peter@ontmoh.UUCP (Peter Renzland) Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand Subject: Maori Orthography (Was Re: Maori Queen ?) Summary: indicating maaori vowel length is essential Message-ID: <675517098.4956@ontmoh.UUCP> Date: Wed May 29 11:38:18 GMT 1991 References: <1991May28.052717.5971@comp.vuw.ac.nz> <1991May28.063159.13524@kcbbs.gen.nz> <1991May28.173508.28486@groucho> Lines: 65 Rather than quoting Paul Bickerstaff's article (Waiho maa te whakamaa e patu :-), I will quote an authority: Bruce Biggs, "English - Maori Dictionary", 1966, page 11: "Although aware of the semantic significance of a distinction between long and short vowel sounds in Maori no one thought it necessary, until recently, to distinguish them consistently. In 1958 the present writer, convinced that the very frequent distinction between long and short vowels should be marked -- there are probably thousands of Maori words that are distinguished from other words by only the quantity of a single vowel -- began to campaign for a change in Maori orthography that would mark all significant differences of vowel quantity. Since that time many authorities have agreed that this would be desirable. Difference of opinion has centred on the method of marking to be used, some favouring a bar or macron placed over a long vowel, others preferring vowel gemination (doubling) to indicate length. Doubling each long vowel was an orthographic innovation of Maoris themselves, as early as the 1840s, and in 1871 W.L. Williams said "a Maori, in writing a long vowel, will frequently double it to show that it is long". In this _Dictionary_ the precedent first established by Maoris themselves is followed, and all long vowels are indicated by doubling. There are sound historical reasons for this, since most long vowels in Maori have resulted from the loss of a consonant present in the proto-language from which Maori descended. Moreover, typing and printing difficulties associated with macrons are obviated, and the flow of script writing is not interrupted. But however long vowels are marked, or even if they are not marked, it is absolutely essential when a word is pronounced to ensure that each vowel has its correct quantity. Failure to do so is the sign of much faulty learning by students of Maori Language." Bruce Biggs, Professor of Oceanic Linguistics and Maori Studies, University of Auckland: "Let's Learn Maori", 1969, page 15: "Maori, like all Polynesian Languages, has phonemically distinctive vowel length, and a great many words are distinguished solely by pronouncing a given vowel as short or long. The conventional orthography, devised by English-speaking missionaries, failed to take this into account. Long vowels were not distinguished from short vowels, and reading involved a good deal of guesswork. It is now generally recognized that it is essential to mark vowel length by some method ..." here are some examples: matua parent hiira shield mana influence maatua parents hira important maarama light wahine woman kaainga home marama moon waahine women kainga eating maaruu gentle ana cave kaaka cork maru abundance aana his/hers kakaa red hot maruu bruised anaa there! kaakaa parrot toroa albatross haaunga besides kaka clothing tooroa middle finger haunga stink maana for him You may have noticed that words like Maori, when used in English, having become part of the English language, are usually spelled in the conventional way. Of course those who are fond of the maaori language will write maaori words the maaori way even when embedded in English text :-). Toi te kupu, toi te mana, toi te whenua. -- Peter Renzland @ Ontario Ministry of Health 416/964-9141 peter@ontmoh.UUCP and this: From: peter@ontmoh.UUCP (Peter Renzland) Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand Subject: Macrons or Doubling (Was Re: Maori Queen ?) Distribution: world References: <1991May28.063159.13524@kcbbs.gen.nz> <1991May29.045056.4709@comp.vuw.ac.nz> <1991May29.150015.11634@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: >The clincher would be if there were any Maaori words with adjacent long and >short, or short and short, forms of the same vowel, in which case "aaa" >could stand for either "aa-a" and "a-aa", and "aa" could be one or two >syllables. Macrons would eliminate the ambiguity. I couldn't think of an >example, but my Maaori vocabulary is minimal. Can anybody? Yes and no. Yes, in aataahua (beautiful) the second aa crosses a _ morpheme boundary, which is why Williams's Dictionary spells it thus: ataahua. However, generally, _adjacent_like_vowels_in_the_same_phrase_are_pronounced_ _as_a_single_long_vowel_. Thus the ambiguity is not in pronunciation, but simply in derivation. aataahua = aata (intense) + aahua (form,appearance) Notice how no standard orthography attempts to preserve all 3 "a". That's because of the rule I just quoted. Now, the prefix "whaka" almost always is pronounced as a separate unstressed particle. Thus whaka (cause to be) + aahua = whakaahua _ (photograph). With the macron method, it is spelled whakaahua. Perfectly clear? :-) -- Good question! Let me make a comment on one further reason why vowel doubling is a good thing. I hope we can all agree that the failure to indicate vowel length properly by the English missionaries was a bad thing. If yu spk a lngge flntly, yu wll be able to rd it evn if all intrr vwls are dltd. But it doesn't help the preservation and learning of the language. Macrons are not an integral part of the spelling. They appear more as an afterthought. Thus, they are easily overlooked. Let me give an example. I have here a textbook that uses macrons: "Modern Maori" - Book 1, P.M. Ryan, 1978. On page 1 we read "the macron or small line over the letter indicates a long vowel". On page 2 the stress rule reminds us of long vowels. On page 5 we read "the longer vowel is marked by a macron". On page 14: "That little macron (line) over the [vowel] makes a lot of difference, so practice putting in the macrons when you have to write down any Maori words with long vowels." Yet, within those first 14 pages, there are 35 vowel length errors, mostly missing macrons. Please don't misinterpret my intentions. I don't mean to criticise the authors. My point is that the macron method is just very error prone. >While we're on this, could someone post a length-marked list of the more >familiar Maaori placenames? I can't guess the lengths from the Pakeha >(Paakeha?) pronunciations I grew up with. paakehaa :-) I'll leave that to someone who has it on file. >-- Jack Campin Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank -- Peter Renzland @ Ontario Ministry of Health 416/964-9141 peter@ontmoh.UUCP -- Peter Renzland Je danse, donc je suis. +1 416 323-1300 Toi te kupu, toi te mana, toi te whenua.