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From: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: Long Vowels: Macrons or Doubling (Was Re: Paakehaa ...)
Date: 28 May 1993 20:21:03 GMT
Organization: phys dept
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1u5s7fINNntm@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu>
References: <Geoff.hq5o@equinox.gen.nz> <1993May28.000101.17362@govonca.gov.on.ca>
Reply-To: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu

In article <Geoff.hq5o@equinox.gen.nz>, Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff
Mccaughan) writes:
> Peter Renzland (renzland@govonca.gov.on.ca) wrote:
> 
> >3. Maaori is almost a dead language.  Fewer than 10% of Maaori
families speak
>>    [stuff deleted]
> >   Thus, it's necessary for teaching and communicating unambiguously.
> 
> Unambiguously? What bollocks.
> 
> You're trying to teach pronounciation [that's pro *nun* ciation children] in
> a written medium and claim it's unambiguous?
> 
> You can try to teach correct pronounciation, or you can try to teach correct
> spelling, seems you can't have both though.
>  

There is some truth in what you say. Not all Polynesian sounds are exactly
like their English counterparts e.g. r in Maaori which is somewhat softer
than normally pronounced in English and even has a hint of an l sound.
Indeed it is rendered l in written Hawaiian (possibly erroneously *) and 
(except in words of European descent) does not occur in Samoan where
it is definitely replaced by l. There are other examples and dialectical
differences both within Maaori and throughout Polynesia.  

*[A few months ago I posted an article on poor King Liholiho's problems
with this but I don't know if it got out because there have been problems 
with posting news at this site for the past year. If it didn't and there is
interest I could repost it.]

However, the specific problem being addressed in this thread has to do
with vowel length and in this case I am in full agreement with those
who want to distinguish the vowel length. In this case it *is* possible to
have a better approximation to what is actually pronounced. Peter,
in his points 1 and 2 (which you deleted) has already addressed the
issue of why one can justifiably ask that Maaori be approximately
phonetically correct when English doesn't bother. He has also
pointed out that the _same_sound_  uttered for different lengths of
time can change the meaning of words that otherwise look the same.

I would like to add that it has been my unfortunate experience
that if the wrong length of sound is used in talking to a native
(Samoan) speaker then you are not understood. The native 
speaker's ear readily distinguishes the different lengths and 
has trouble making allowances for deaf foreigners.    :-)

Thus, it is dangerous to approach this issue from the fixation
of a native English speaker (particularly one carrying all the
baggage of his education and culture).

Paul Bickerstaff                 Internet: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu
Physics Dept., Univ. of Idaho    Phone:    (208) 885 6809
Moscow ID 83843-2341, USA             FAX:      (208) 885 6173
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