\begindata{text822, 0} X-Andrew-WideReply: netnews.soc.culture.new-zealand X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Received: via nntppoll with nntp; Thu, 3 Jun 1993 17:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Path: andrew.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!magnesium.club.cc.cmu.edu!eddie.mit.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!serval!owl.csrv.uidaho.edu!tamaluit!pbickers From: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff) Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand Subject: Re: Long Vowels: Macrons or Doubling (Was Re: Paakehaa ...) Date: 3 Jun 1993 20:17:23 GMT Organization: phys dept Lines: 108 Distribution: world Message-ID: <1ulm8jINNb89@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu> References: <1993Jun2.170558.11474@govonca.gov.on.ca> <1993May25.222058.24925@govonca.gov.on.ca> <1u3bgdINNh0n@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu> Reply-To: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff) NNTP-Posting-Host: tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu In article <1993Jun2.170558.11474@govonca.gov.on.ca>, renzland@govonca.gov.on.ca (Peter Renzland) writes: > pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu (Paul Bickerstaff) writes: > > >I would be very interested in any references you might have on this > > >This is certainly an assertion which you should substantiate with some > >references. > > How about this: > [2 reposted articles deleted] I have not forgotten your old postings last time this subject came up, which is why I thought I asked for some _scholarly_ references rather than just a scholar's opinion. I distinguish between the two. On the issue of what Maori writers in the last century wrote I would be keen to see some examples. Does anybody know where some can be found? My current place of residence is not the best place for me to go looking. :-) (I do not dispute that this device was used but wonder how consistently it was used and what other "devices" may have been used. After all, Captain Cook doubled some vowels too but nobody takes his orthography seriously.) My major difficulty though is with Bigg's assertion "There are sound historical reasons for this, since most long vowels in Maori have resulted from the loss of a consonant present in the proto-language from which Maori descended." I think his use of "most" is incorrect and I suspect he is guilty of either wishful thinking or unjustified extrapolation to the "proto-language", or both, in making this assertion. I am prepared to be convinced otherwise but am by nature skeptical and in this case my meagre knowledge and a cursory examination of Tregear's comparative dictionary of Polynesian languages leads me to believe he is just plain wrong. Incidentally Tregear (writing about 1890 I think) explicitly rejects vowel doubling as a valid device on the grounds that long vowels frequently represent no more than accent and accent should not be reflected in spelling. He was, I believe, referring in particular to Maori in saying this. I can give some interesting examples in Samoan which illustrate the use of accent. The usual word in Samoan for big is tele with (mild) accent on the first syllable. However, though the language does offer other means of doing so, a Samoan speaker will often refer to something very big by saying tel\=e (with the accent on the last syllable). There are many similar sorts of examples. One that I find interesting in the present context is the manner of denoting a family e.g. sa Malieto\=a (the family of Malietoa) where normally the accent is on the penultimate syllable. This example is not unique but I cite it because the origin of the name Maliet\=oa is known. This is the title of the highest chief in the land (and the current Head of State). It so happens that some centuries past the Tongans ruled Samoa (from the reign of the 10th to the 15th Tui Tonga) but they were finally kicked out after a successful Samoan uprising. The defeated Tongans were allowed to depart and as they sailed off the Tui Tonga (King of Tonga) cried out "Malie tau, Malie toa". I'm not sure of the official translation but I will translate it as "Well fought, noble warrior" (malie= agreeable, tau=to fight, toa=warrior or courageous). So there can be no question that the use of a long vowel in this circumstance does not result from dropped consonants. My impression is that long vowels are an *integral* part of all Polynesian languages. The *major* differences between the dialects are with the consonants. The following quote from Pratt's Grammar and Dictionary of the Samoan Language contains the following interesting (and I suggest relevant) quote. (The second edition, in which I think he added his Grammar, dates from 1876; the first edition was 1862.) "NOTE: Many natives are exceedingly careless in the pronunciation of consonants, and even exchange or transpose them without confusion and almost unnoticed by their beares [sic], as {\it manu} for {\it namu} a scent; {\it lagoga} for {\it lagona}, to understand; {\it lava`au} for {\it vala`au}, to call; {\it but they are very particular about the pronunciation of the vowels.}" [For those not familiar with TeX \it means italic; \= denotes a macron on the following letter.] Paul Bickerstaff Internet: pbickers@tamaluit.phys.uidaho.edu Physics Dept., Univ. of Idaho Phone: (208) 885 6809 Moscow ID 83843-2341, USA FAX: (208) 885 6173 \enddata{text822, 0}