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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Spanish pronunciations [was: Re: Alternate languages
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References: <33B3AF68.3CEE@gse.mq.edu.au> <ECpAuJ.2Ar@midway.uchicago.edu> <5pemo0$m1l$1@halcyon.com> <ironmtn-0307971513420001@vic-as-01b14.direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:44:02 GMT
Lines: 88

(Note follow-up.  I think it's safe to say this is not going in the
direction of alternate history anymore.)

In article <ironmtn-0307971513420001@vic-as-01b14.direct.ca>,
Mike Cleven <ironmtn@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>In article <5pemo0$m1l$1@halcyon.com>, pyotr@halcyon.com (pyotr
>filipivich) wrote:
>> 
>>         Wonder if there is some form of standard language pronuciation
>> developing - why is "ll" a consonant in Welsh & English, but not in
>> Spanish?
>
>Depends on the dialect.  In Guerrero (the Acapulco region), where I lived
>for a while, many people pronounce "ll" and "y" as "dj".  Other Mexican
>dialects barely stress it at all, to the point where it's barely a "y". 
>In some other areas it's a "lly".  There's an interesting discussion of
>Spanish prononciation variants in the University of Chicago 
>Spanish-English Dictionary which accounts for these variations.  

The U of C pocket S-E Dictionary is a useful source for Spanish American
pronunciation in general, but it leaves a lot to be desired in describing
peninsular Spanish (which, due to its longer history, has much more
regional variation).

>I believe
>if you were go to Galicia or Asturias, you'd find that the Castilian
>version of "ll" is not used in favour of something much more similar to
>the Welsh "ll" ("lth", sort of)

Now this has me baffled.  The Welsh sound is a voiceless lateral fricative
(short description:  try to say 'hl'; once you can do this easily, try to
make the sound rougher, so that your tongue really vibrates against the
roof of your mouth), which is nothing at all like the *voiced* *palatal*
lateral that Castilian <ll> represents.  My guide to Asturianu (Garcia
Arias, 1988) lists four possible local realisations of this sound:

1.  Voiced prepalatal stop (i.e. 'dy')
2.  Voiced prepalatal affricate (i.e. 'j')
3.  Voiceless prepalatal affricate (i.e. 'ch')
4.  Voiceless aveolar affricate (i.e. 'ts')

None of these is the least bit lateral (i.e. having an l-like quality) and
all occur naturally in English (e.g. 'due', 'Jew', 'chew', 'It's Sue').
The second variant is also found in Cuban and other Caribbean varieties.
As far as I'm aware, Galician <ll> is equivalent to Portuguese <lh>, (i.e.
<lli> in "million").

>> >Sometimes, something as simple as the choice of a capitol can have a major
>> >impact on a standard language.  Consider Spanish:  If Toledo had not been
>> >superseded by Madrid, Castilian might not only be seseante (i.e. no
>> >'lisping'), but also 'sh' and 'ch' sounds would have survived and there
>> >would be no 'jota' (the rough, h-like sound in 'cojones'); also, <h> would
>> >be pronounced, as it is in much of Andalucia today.  
>> 
>>         In other words, are you saying Spanish in the Spanish Capital 
>> city would sound more like Mexican? :-)  ( I lived for a while in
>> Madrid, courtesy of the USAFE.  My Spanish has that Castiallan lithp!
>> "'th'inco de Mayo!" and all that.
>
>I met a Murcian couple who ran the hotel we stayed in in Mexico City's
>Zona Rosa, and it really took some mind-bending to get used to the
>Senora's version of the lisp, which wasn't even "th" but was more "open"
>and "soft".  

In many parts of southern Spain, the 'th' devolves to 'h' (which, with a
little effort, an English speaker can learn to pronounce in all positions,
even though it only occurs at the beginning of syllables in native English
words).  This change can also affect syllable final /s/ even in places
that are otherwise seseante, like Mexico.  That is, many Mexicans say "lah
cosah buenah".  The do *not* say "lah cohah buenah" (which would be true
'ceceo').

>Some parts of Mexico do, some don't, and the same is true
>throughout the New World versions of Spanish.  Apparently the variations
>had to do with which regions had more contact with Spain (Veracruz and
>Panama, for example, because of their location on the imperial trade
>routes) vs. those areas which were more self-sufficient and also
>influenced by the local native languages (Mexico City, Lima and Cuzco). 
>Colombian is supposed to be more like Castilian, but Venezuelan
>isn't......

Yup, this is basically true (though I would hesitate to generalise about
Columbian dialects since, as Castillo and Bond point out, there "at least
five distinctive linguistic zones").
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
