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From: pardoej@lonnds.ml.com (Julian Pardoe LADS LDN X1428)
Subject: Re: Shavian alphabet revisted
Message-ID: <Dxo3Hy.E6M@tigadmin.ml.com>
Sender: usenet@tigadmin.ml.com (News Account)
Reply-To: pardoej@lonnds.ml.com
Organization: Merrill Lynch Europe
References: <rte-1009961747000001@135.25.40.118>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:51:34 GMT
Lines: 86

In article <rte-1009961747000001@135.25.40.118>, rte@elmo.lz.att.com (Ralph T. Edwards) writes:
-->In article <5132kb$p44@fountain.mindlink.net>, Keith_Swayne@mindlink.bc.ca
-->wrote:
-->
-->> A few months back, someone posted some info and inquiries about the
-->> Shavian alphabet. I just recently discovered it in the Cambridge
-->> Encyclopedia of Languages [CEL] (p. 216). One problem for me as a
-->> speaker of Western Canadian English: the last symbol in the bottom two
-->> rows of the chart in this book are described as "ah" and "awe". In my
-->> dialect, the vowel in "awe" is simplya short O, as in the word "on".
-->> Any tips on distinguishing the intended sound of this symbol and it's
-->> counterpart at the end of the third row in the CEL? Is the problem my
-->> dialect or my misunderstanding of the intended sound?
-->
-->I don't have the info you describe. (I do have some info on the Shavian
-->alphabet at home, not handy.)  However since I do pronounce ah and awe
-->differently, I can say with some confidence that he intended ah to be
-->either [a] or [A] (center or back, low, unround) and awe to be [A.] (back,
-->low, round).  And no, I wouldn't expect a Western Canadian to make this
-->distinction, so it's your dialect.

Note that "he" cannot be Shaw.  The alphabet was designed because his will
left money for the purpose.

-->My use of these sounds is as follows (I'd expect Shaw's to be differently
-->distributed.)
-->
-->round    unround
-->
-->law      la (the note)
-->log      cog
-->dawn     don
-->walk     wok
-->caught   cot
-->caller   collar
-->loss     lot
-->lost     lob
-->cloth    clod
-->off      top
-->soft     sock 
-->song     bomb
-->bought   bot
-->gone
-->awe      ah
-->
-->In general the -au-, -aw, -ought, -all, -alk, -oth, -oss, -ost, -off,
-->-oft, -ong and some -og words have the round vowel, the rest have the
-->unround vowel.  US dictionaries use o circumflex for the round vowel and o
-->breve for the unround.
-->I would guess somewhat more than half the population of the US makes this
-->distinction.  Does anyone in Canada or Britain make this distinction?  I
-->think some of these words used to be distinguished in England as long
-->versus short versions of [A.].

For me (British RP) the following have ON not AWE:
   log loss lost cloth off soft song gone
(Interestingly enough the older, more upper-class RP that my mother's parents
spoke has AWE in at least "lost", "off" and "soft".  "Song" was definitely
ON.  I'm not sure about the others.  The classic sign of this dialect is some-
times said to be that "often" rhymes with "orphan": AWE FEE ADO NUN.)

All the words Ralph cites as having AH have ON for me except:
     la ah

As for the phonetics I'm no expert but ON seems to be short, mid back and
unrounded (the lips are slack; ON is higher than EGG).  AWE is longer and
slightly lower with some lip rounding.  AH is not so long as AWE, is very
open and very back and the lips are wide apart.

I've never really managed to get the hang of the correspondances between
these RP sounds (and UP and ADO) and those in the various N. American
dialects.

As for the Shavian alphabet, I can't help feeling that AIR and ERR are
the wrong way round.  The AIR sound sounds to me a bit like EGG-ADO
and ERR like a long ADO.  Yet the symbol for ERR has two EGGs plus
a ROAR (pronounce these quickly and you get an AIR) and the symbol
for AIR has two ADOs plus a ROAR, suggesting a long ADO sound.
Hmm!

Is there a Shavian TrueType fount out there?

-- jP --



