Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.abs.net!news.scn.org!scn.org!lilandbr
From: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Subject: Re: Sum: 'I take these books'
Message-ID: <DuG5Co.CLn@scn.org>
Sender: news@scn.org
Reply-To: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Organization: Seattle Community Network
References: <fmart-1207960056030001@news.ua.pt>  
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:09:59 GMT
Lines: 65


Dear Fernando:

More thoughts on your sentences, written before seeing the above-referenced
summary...

It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to stating a definite opinion 
about the acceptability of your test sentences lies in the fact that your 
basic, unellipted example is not entirely normal in English (the problem 
has to do not with the syntax but with the semantics of take vis-`a-vis 
books).  I.e.,

     What books do you take?  I take these books.

is *much* less "normal" than any one of the following:

     What books are you taking?*  I'm taking these books.*
*or* What books did you take?  I took these books.
*or* What pills do you take?  I take these pills.

* Note that in the first of these three Q-A's, the so-called progressive 
present tense will in some contexts be a de facto future tense.

I think the main factor making your test pattern abnormal is that the 
simple English present tense carries an implication of iterativity or 
habitualness, which is usually inapplicable to the taking of books, so 
that all of your sentences look a bit *odd*--not necessarily "wrong" so 
much as "unlikely"--whether or not "books" is ellipted.

On further reflection, I have decided that Sentence 1 is less "normal" 
than Sentence 2, though neither is "wrong"; that Sentence 3 (or my 
suggested emendation with "of them") is not a "normal" response to "What 
books do you take?"  though it *would* be to "How many books do you 
take?" (though, again, "pills" would be much more likely).

Sentence 4 (with or without "of them") is a normal response to "Which 
book do you take?", given that a set of two and only two books is under 
discussion.  If the set of takable books is known by the respondent to be 
more or fewer than two, then Sentence 4 is not acceptable.

Sentence 5, as I previously stated, is not acceptable.  However, it can 
be made acceptable by adding "one", though the more or less synonymous "I 
take all of them" (*never* without the "of them") would be more likely.

Sentence 6 is quite acceptable, though it seems to me quite unlikely in 
the context of the question "What books do you take?"  The clause "I take 
the oldest" would be more likely to occur in some odd yet concretely 
imaginable situation such as "Given that you can only take one of your 
books to show to the antiquarian bookseller, which one do you take, all 
other things being equal?" "I take the oldest."

I hope some of the foregoing is of some usefulness to you.  I am 
interested in seeing any other responses you might have received, and 
especially in finding out whether there appears to be any significant 
*dialectal* variation in English-speakers' opinions on the 
(un)acceptability of your sentences, whether concerning the ellipses or not.

Thanks for a chance to be loquacious.

Leland
--
Liland Brajant ROS'       "I don't care if my wheels are comin' off,
P O Box 30091                 long as I got my plastic Zamenhof...."
Seattle, WA 98103 Usono      USONA ANTOLOGIO Baptista Esperantistaro
Tel. (206) 633-2434                 English, especially under duress
