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From: EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com
Subject: Re: The confusion about countries, states, nations and people (was: Trevlig nationaldag nskas!>
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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:05:00 GMT
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In article <Du7FrE.CM8@midway.uchicago.edu>,
deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
 
>In article <4rg41v$b0e@nef.ens.fr>, Henrik Ernoe  <erno@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>>jmo@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>Germany consist of One nation, One people but in several states.
>>
>>ups: you are forgetting the danes, frisians and sorbs. None of these
>>would like to be included in the german nation.
>
>        More importantly, IMNSHO, *everyone* is forgetting Pakistanis,
>Turks, Algerians, Filipinos, Rumanians, and so on and so on.  At least
>one poster *did* include gypsies#.  They've only been living in Europe
>for about 25 generations or so.  Even as Europe is getting closer to
>being "one state", it is growing more "multinational."
>
Talking about Germany only, the question was about citizenship vs.
nationality. Danes, Frisians, Sorbs (and many "gypsies") are
German citizens, though they would perhaps not consider themselves
as Germans - or, well, I am not sure about Sorbs and Frisians, or
gypsies, many would perhaps simply consider themselves as Germans.
 
As for Turks, Italians, Greeks and others - many of whom have been born
in Germany, they are not German citizens. Whether you like this or
not - this is just the way it is.
 
Regards, 
Manfred Kiefer
 
>>>Finally, in UK several Peoples live in different nations and speak
>>>different languages but they do live in the same nation (don't they)?
>>>Maggie Mulvaney above argues that they also live in different
>>>countries. Who am I to oppose, but I'm not 100% sure all Brits would
>>>aggree.
>>>
>>>Comments?
>>
>>Well as far as I can see the main confusion is between nationality
>>and citizenship. The German minority in DK are germans (part of the
>>german nation) but with Danish citizenship,i;e subjects of Queen
>>Margrethe II.
>
>        It's *even* not that simple.  In its English-language ads,
>Catalonia (that is to say, the Generalitat de Catalunya) calls itself
>"A nation of six-million people in the heart of Europe."  Very few
>Catalans are separatists and even those that are would not call
>Catalonia a "country" or a "state".  It was a "state" at one time
>(though arguably not a "nation-state", being a part of the "country"
>of the Crown of Aragon for most of its existence) but is now a part
>of the country of Spain.  How many nations are there in Spain anyway?
>At least as many as there are recognised official languages, and pro-
>bably many more.  After all, it occupies the territory of at least
>seven former states.
>
>        All citizens of Catalonia are citizens of Spain, but not vice-
>versa.  Some members of the "gypsy nation" (or one of the gypsy nations,
>depending on how pan your pan-gypsy notions are) are also Spanish citizens,
>some are Catalonian citizens on top of that, and some are neither.  Simi-
>larly, all citizens of Wales are citizens of Britain.  Some of these are
>members of the Welsh nation and ethnicity, some are not, and some members
>of the Welsh nation have never been citizens of Britain.  Many Welsh
>citizens are also South Asians.  Some are gypsies.  What nation do these
>belong to?  I can't imagine how they'd answer that question.
>
>#I know someone on the Net is going to criticise my use of this term and
>suggest a fashionable substitute like "Sinti and Roma" which manages to
>be both more cumbersome and less inclusive.  (What about Vlaxs?  What about
>Manouches?)  Some gypsies find the term offensive; some use it in their
>official publications.  Until someone invents an inoffensive alternative
>with the same range of meaning, I hope the former group will be understanding.
>--
>         Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
>        (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
>                                   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
