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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Names
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 05:30:29 GMT
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In article <3pql4l$2l0@dove.nist.gov>,
Bill Fisher <billf@jaguar.ncsl.nist.gov> wrote:

>  I'm talking science here, not folklore.

You're talking *social* science.  In this discipline, unlike in the
hard sciences, you can't ignore what goes on in peoples' minds,
especially when you're talking about meaning.
>
>> 	"Translation" may not be the best term for this kind of equi-
>> valence, but I'm hard-pressed to find another.  After all, if it makes
>> no sense to say "Jupp" is a translation of "Joe," does it make any
>> sense to call "deutsch" a translation of "German"?
>> -- 
>  Yes, it does, because the set of things of which German "deutsch"
>is true of is very nearly the set of things of which English "German"
>is true of.  But the set of things of which German "Jupp" is true of
>has almost no overlap with the set of things of which English "Joe" is
>true of. 

	Okay, I can see the formal logical point you're making, but
natural language does not obey all the rules of formal logic.  For
example, as one poster pointed out, there is no one-to-one correspon-
dence between words in one language and their "translations" in another.

	Furthermore, sometimes the set of things which, for example,
"Jos'e" is true of and the set of things for which "Joseph" is true of
*do* overlap; in the US, for instance, plenty of people are known by
a different name in their native language than in the national language.
Some months ago, there was a discussion in this newsgroup about "trans-
lating [one's] name" [sic] when speaking a foreign language.  Plenty
of posters said that they used different but cognate forms of their 
given names when speaking different languages.  Once again, since you
object to calling this "translation" (although general usage dictionaries
of English do not) what term do you suggest for the equivalence?  Why 
isn't it true to say that Giuseppe *sometimes* translates "Joseph" just 
as it is true to say that "deutsch" *sometimes* translates "German" (not 
in "German shepherd," though) and that "fare" *sometimes* translates 
"doing"? 
	


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
