Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!jabber!cpp!cloutier
From: cloutier@critpath.org (Diane Cloutier)
Subject: Re: Pictish words?
Message-ID: <D8Fzr2.B6p@critpath.org>
Summary: Tell me more, Stewart 
Organization: Critical Path Project
References: <3o83h9$loo@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> <799966384snz@meden.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 01:49:49 GMT
Lines: 60

In article <799966384snz@meden.demon.co.uk> Stewart@meden.demon.co.uk writes:

>There's evidence that there's several different linguistic groups
>covered by term Pict. The best known is a P-Celtic group.

A friend once showed me a reference work on the Picts which had a
pretty complete list of the Pictish kings' names and ogams, plus four
glosses - the only direct quotes from the Pictish language(s). Can anybody
steer me to that book or a comparable one?

"P-Celt" and "Q-Celt" are fine descriptive categories for the living
Celtic tongues of 1800 A.D. They are probably less useful for describing
the taxonomic relationships of Celtic speeches in the time of Christ, as
the Q>P shift is of late origin and partial penetrance and does not
necessarily reflect corresponding divergences in vocabulary or grammar.

>However, I've seen estimates of 300 place names of wholly or
>partially Pictish origin, and maps showing a distribution from
>Fife to Easter Ross, with outliers elsewhere in Scotland, e.g.
>in Lothian, Galloway and Skye.

Fascinating! Sources, please?

>I'd also suspect occurrences of aber- (river mouth) north of Antonine's
>Wall as being Pictish.

My guess as well

>I've seen the relative absence of Pictish names in the west
>and the far north presented as evidence that other languages
>were spoken in those regions. It was suggested that Argyll
>and the southern Hebrides were even then Goidelic speaking
>(this predates the Dalriadic settlement).

The West may simply have been lightly settled by the Picts. Their
land-oriented kingdoms focused on the relatively flat and fertile
river valleys of the east. The Goidels may have moved into a vacuum in
the west with superior maritime technology (curraghs) that enabled them
to wrest a better living from previously marginal land by better
harvesting the sea.

>Some river names (e.g. Findhorn, Spey, Deveron) are described
>as Old European (Indo-European, but neither Celtic, nor Germanic).

Can you refer me to any sources on this?

>Finally, there's the undeciphered language found on Pictish
>symbol stones.

What I've seen of it looks not only indecipherable, but unpronounceable.
Not Indo-European - could be Martian.

Is there a geographical pattern to the Non-IE ogam inscriptions
of Pictavia? Thanks for your helpful comments, Stewart or anybody else.

>Stewart Hinsley

-Tony West (from Diane Cloutier's acount)


