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From: donh@netcom.com (Don HARLOW)
Subject: Re: Esperanto? The EU? (Very, very long)
Message-ID: <donhD49Bt3.4Hx@netcom.com>
Organization: Esperanto League for North America, Inc.
References: <donhD3v8EG.275@netcom.com> <3hudjr$41@fido.asd.sgi.com> <3i2otb$9v5@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <3i622f$m7f@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Distribution: inet
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 17:12:39 GMT
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Sender: donh@netcom3.netcom.com

livesey@solntze.engr.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) skribis en lastatempa afisxo <3i622f$m7f@fido.asd.sgi.com>:
>In article <3i2otb$9v5@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, mgr11@cus.cam.ac.uk (M.G. Rison) writes:
>|> 
>|> I am sure you fool no-one by implying only two, rather extreme,
>|> possibilities exist.  There are many options between `[Esperanto
>|> becoming] so popular and obviously useful all by itself that people
>|> naturally adopt it without help from bureaucrats' and `[Esperanto being]
>|> imposed [and] made a standard by bureaucrats [and] subsidiised or
>|> singled out for special treatment'.  These range from simple
>|> non-partisan dissemination of information by the EU, through official
>|> non-financial support, to active lobbying of member states' governments.
>|> 
>|> Why do you insist on only considering the two extreme positions?
>
>Because I can't get Esperanto fans to spell out what the process is.
>Sometimes they suggest that it be a required language of European
>Parliament members, and sometime they claim that no requirement or 
>cost will occur at all.
>
>I call this "bait and switch".    It's a well-known tactic in debate
>consisting of one proponent of a measure claiming it will be put
>into place in a harmless and economic way, while another claims 
>benefits for the measure that appear only to be possible if it is
>imposed in an authoritarian and costly way.
>
>The only way I know to get them to come clean is to say "Here are
>two possible positions for you to take; please choose one, or
>suggest your own position".
>
>All I see in your answer is yet another complicated statement of
>non-commitment to any particular stance.
>
>I'm amazed that Esperanto fans have come this far having *never*
>written down a concrete proposal.   Of course, if they ever did,
>they'd have to stop playing bait and switch, and we'd all be able
>to see what their proposals will cost us.
>
Jon, I'm amazed to see that, after more than a week of this, you haven't 
yet gotten it through your head (I charitably omit any obvious 
qualifiers) that what you call "Esperanto fans" consist of a rather 
heterogeneous group of individuals who disagree very widely on a whole 
range of subjects, from politics to tactics, rather than some small 
but dedicated army marching in absolute lockstep, who have somehow 
(off-line?) conspired to play "bait and switch" just to confuse you. 

You won't get any absolutely agreed-upon plan because there simply 
isn't one. Hell, as I've pointed out before, Esperanto speakers don't 
even agree upon the _desirability_ of having Esperanto made (one of) 
the official language(s) of the EU.

Mr. Rison has his opinions. Mr. Hinsen has his. Mr. Knappen has his. 
Mr. Grimley-Evans has his. I have mine. Mr. Miko has his. Why do 
you automatically assume that they should all somehow match up? 
After all, to coin a phrase, 'this is Usenet'.

Still, who knows? For those who want to see Esperanto introduced 
into the EU, you may have performed the valuable service of forcing 
them to realize that they _do_ have to devise some sort of plan -- 
and some sort of means for getting it at least considered. If this 
is the case, perhaps someday someone will give you a medal.



-- 
Don HARLOW			donh@netcom.com
Esperanto League for N.A.       elna@netcom.com (800) 828-5944
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/el/elna/elna.html         Esperanto
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/do/donh/donh.html 
