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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: International Language.
Message-ID: <1995Jan8.175908.9979@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Organization: University of Chicago
References: <3ejt2e$duv@panix2.panix.com> <1995Jan8.003137.4773@midway.uchicago.edu> <donhD22C1B.IBF@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 17:59:08 GMT
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Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu sci.lang.translation:536 sci.lang:34054

In article <donhD22C1B.IBF@netcom.com> donh@netcom.com (Don HARLOW) writes:
>deb5@midway.uchicago.edu skribis en lastatempa afisxo <1995Jan8.003137.4773@midway.uchicago.edu>:
>>In article <3ejt2e$duv@panix2.panix.com> rcpj@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>>>In article <1995Jan6.075328.17902@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>>Daniel von Brighoff <deb5@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>>                                                  Zamenhof's linguistic
>>>>bias (feminine agent nouns should be derived from masculine agent nouns),
>>>>which is derived from an older European cultural bias (women are subordi-
>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>nate to men), would then have been turned into a cultural bias again
>>>
>>>How do you know? At most, it is a correlation in a single example, hardly
>>>the stuff from which one can draw conclusions. 
>>
>>In every European language of my acquaintance, specifically feminine
>>agent nouns are derived from the masculine agent noun.  How is this
>>"correlation in a single example"?  Also, I think it's really sufficiently
>>clear that European cultures have not even striven for equality of the
>>sexes until recently and that this fact is reflected in their languages.
>>
>You are unfamiliar with Spanish, then? In Spanish, while some nouns 
>for feminine agents are completely different from the masculine 
>equivalents (vaca/toro, mujer/hombre), those that are related are 
>generally of equal weight, and it would be difficult to say which 
>one was derived from the other (hermana/hermano, hija/hijo). I don't 
>know any in which the feminine agent nouns are (at least obviously) 
>derived from the masculine agent nouns, and my wife (a native 
>Spanish speaker) can't think of any offhand, either...

Apparently, you don't know what a feminine agent noun is.  In the 
European languages generally, an "agent noun" is a from derived from
a verb which denotes the performer of the action described by that
verb. For example:

lavar --> lavador --> lavadora
"wash"    "washer"    "washer (specifically feminine)

Pray tell, what action is "hijo" the performer of?  Or "hombre"?
These are masculine nouns, but not agent nouns.

Another confused poster said that feminine agent nouns weren't
derived from the masculine forms in French or English.  Is he
trying to say that:

blanchisseur <--  blanchisseuse
launderer    <-- laundress

?
>I guess this proves that Spanish speaking cultures have no sexual 
>bias and women are treated on a basis of complete equality with men.
>Just ask my wife, who grew up in enlightened, egalitarian Mexico.

With all due respect, Mr. Harlow, why do you insist on associating me
with an argument which I have already repudiated?  If my last long
response to you did not convince you that I am not a Whorffian, why
did you not question its points in a reply instead of tossing a
red herring into another thread?  No one in this discussion, least of
all me, has been arguing that the absence of grammatical gender in
a language predisposes one toward egalitarianism.

-- 
	Daniel "Da" von Brighoff (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /\
	5242 S. Hyde Park Blvd., Apt. 303		    /__\
	Chicago, IL  60615				   /____\
