Newsgroups: sci.logic,sci.physics,alt.atheism,comp.ai.philosophy
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From: pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M. Koloc)
Subject: Re: Goedel, and thc Proof of "god"
Message-ID: <D8syJv.IG6@prometheus.UUCP>
Reply-To: pmk@promethe.UUCP (Paul M. Koloc)
Organization: Prometheus II, Ltd.
References: <3nq94k$kf4@infoserv.rug.ac.be> <3oj88g$cre@Radon.Stanford.EDU> <ANSM.95May8170641@term12.tfd.chalmers.se> <sewalter-1005951259170001@i4067120.cfa.ilstu.edu> <vanjacD8E7F9.75B@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 01:52:42 GMT
Lines: 121
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu sci.logic:10915 sci.physics:122120 comp.ai.philosophy:28187

In article <vanjacD8E7F9.75B@netcom.com> vanjac@netcom.com (Van) writes:
>In article <sewalter-1005951259170001@i4067120.cfa.ilstu.edu>,
>Scott Walters <sewalter@ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>No reasonable scientist would discount the possibility, either, since
>>until disproven, the god-hypothesis remains viable.  As long as science is
>>unable to definitively prove its hypotheses, and in addition, get beyond
>>the barrier of that first fraction of a second of the universe's
>>existence, the origin of the universe is up for grabs.  Scientific
>>pronouncements to the contrary are just wishful thinking.

>It is not for scientists to disprove every idea put forth with absolutely
>no reason to believe there is any truth to it.

True, although one must consider every idea put forth just to examine
it for worthyness of further examination.  Now the rub, what you think
is unworthy, because you mind tends not to see much, may not be what
others consider to worthy.  

>The concept of God is like me asserting that 4 armed humanoids live
>underground on Io, leaving no evidence of their existence.

My how grand. I fail to see any association between these two objects, 
whatsoever.  I think you are very optimistic.   

>We can't waste time on assertions that have no basis.

Why, you don't make enough to cover your expenses with other work??

In science we know there are factors that are conserved.  This 
consideration suggests existence in some form prior to the big bang.  
Since that event was high in spatial density and expanded (dilated) 
in time, then what ever the substance which composed the big bang 
decayed from was obviously NOT matter.  The notion that the universe 
is undergoing and infinite number expansion contractions, is difficult 
to accept, since like a returning tide, the incoming will be smeared out
over a long time (IF IT WILL CONTRACT AT ALL) and thus the later 
arriving mass will meet already arrived and "bouncing back" masses so
that the outflowing mass will collide and cause damping of the whole 
process.   

That leaves the question, `From where and what is this "hypermatter 
state" that has characteristics which we estimate were there at the 
moment of decay or "big 3D Bang??'  

Frankly, I think this stuff is still there -- where??  in 2 D space--; 
and furthermore an even infinitly dense form of stuff exists in 0ne 
Space as it is an unique single entity.    

>There are a lot of things that could be true. There could be
>certain kinds of life forms on distant planets. But to assert that
>certains forms do exist on certain planets with no evidence and which
>explain nothing is not an assertion that anyone has to refute.

It isn't a matter of asserting that CERTAIN forms live on CERTAIN planets,
it's that the probability of highly intelligent human (soul bearing)
creatures likely exist on many star systems ... maybe several per
galaxy -- maybe 1000s per galaxy.   God isn't defined as CERTAIN this
or that, except that it quite easy to pick "where God is", since his
domicile is  the GRAND ONE DIMENSION   or GOD for short.   :-)

Now, just because a physicists 3-D matter instruments can't detect
volumeless (2D) or 1D  forms of matter, doesn't mean they don't
exist.  We know they likely do.  Why,..   logic.   Does energy density
run down?? (decrease)  get MORE fluffy??   Does complexity increase??? 
YEP! -- and we are at the nebulous creatures of creation point of the
dimensional complexification!! (Xray's can pass right on through us).  

>Simlilarly god is a assertion for which there is absolutely no evidence
>and which explains nothing, and has no role in science.

I guess that depends on if you can think and develop the discipline
science further than is it is today.  BTW Seems to me "sci edu sucks" --
I mean run into a bit of a problem and try again?? no -- simply quit!  
Right? boys and girls?? 

>No one has to prove that god doesn't exist. There are an infinity of
>things that could exist. Lets concern ourself with things for which
>there is some evidence or reason to believe they do exist.

Sounds good to me.  

>The god idea has been around for a long time, and has not been of any use to
>science. To the contrary it has been a hindrance.

I would really like to see the examples for that last statememt.  The
concept of infinity and the beyond have been most decisive an may sci
efforts.  

So, I wouln't say that.  Hyperspace (2D, dense matter space) is sort
of predicted by Einstien's SR.. After all accelerated to light speed
an object would be very dense, and have no volume, and probably "quantum
mechanically  JUMP to hyperspace"  just before the speed of light
was reached.  What ever that density was will give you an estimate
on what the init density of the stuff that decayed into matter at
the time of the big bang.  As I see it.. pieces the size of pizzas, (a
guess), of hypermatter were ejected into 3-D and formed a cloud of
chips like a shattered show window.  Each piece then evaporated from
its edge and spewed forming matter from it's edges which filled the
local plane around it  for a radius of the order of galatic bodies.  
 
Due to the tremendous density (existence) of these chips and huge
time dilation, the process went on for billions of years.  The objects
looked like what we today see (back in time and away in distance) as
quasars.  Eventually they converted all thier hypermatter to matter
and settled into the  galactic forms we see today.  

Now, Mr.  tough science hard butt with all the imagination of a
chunk of concrete, what do you think of those ideas???  Maybe
I should send you a can of wd40 to loosen those rusty nuts.  

Oh, we still don't need GOD..   Okay, pal, but where do you think
that hyper matter came from.  
>-- 
>Van  --  Email: vanjac@netcom.com

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