From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!wupost!uwm.edu!psuvax1!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!zariski!zeleny Tue Mar 24 09:56:20 EST 1992
Article 4508 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Xref: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca comp.ai.philosophy:4508 sci.philosophy.tech:2311
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!wupost!uwm.edu!psuvax1!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!zariski!zeleny
>From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,sci.philosophy.tech
Subject: Re: Causes and Goals
Message-ID: <1992Mar17.110436.9937@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 17 Mar 92 16:04:34 GMT
References: <1992Mar16.005137.13005@a.cs.okstate.edu> <1992Mar16.003442.9891@husc3.harvard.edu> <1992Mar16.224536.2719@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.
Lines: 85
Nntp-Posting-Host: zariski.harvard.edu

In article <1992Mar16.224536.2719@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> 
santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:

>In article <1992Mar16.003442.9891@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes: 

MZ:
>>We have observed two cases of natural signs: one originating from the
>>events occurring in the inanimate realm, and another originating from
>>the actions of an animate being.  Clearly, we do not wish to classify

PS:
>I suspect that we will have problems with the definition of life.

No, we won't, since I am taking it as given, if not primitive.

MZ:
>>the occurrence of a rain cloud as an instance of communication; on the
>>other hand, we are accustomed to saying that the actions of the
>>influenza virus communicate a particular disease.  Unlike a rain cloud,

PS:
>Let's face it: 1 virus does not bring a disease. It is the combination
>of viruses in a certain human body, with certain chemical structure
>of the blood cells, etc. The viruses on a rock do not communicate anything.

Assuming for the moment that the virus is the agent of the disease (an
assumption borne out by Koch's postulates), the human body in question
"acts" mainly as a patient.

PS:
>Relevant things can be said for a cloud: One rain cloud, under
>certain atmospherical conditions brings rain, otherwise it
>moves peacefully to another place. 

A cloud is not an agent.

PS:
>All these phainomena are supposed obey to certain natural laws, which 
>are partly modelled in physics.

It is still highly questionable to what extent the laws of biology are
reducible to those of physics.  My own suspicion is that they aren't; see
on this Popper and Eccles' "The Self and Its Brain".

PS:
>The same holds for computer viruses.

Computer viruses aren't agents, either.

MZ:
>>the virus is an agent; however the nature of its agency is purely {\it

PS:
>I am wondering why, according to your definitions, a rain cloud does not
>communicate rain.

For lack of agency.

MZ:
>>somatic}, sufficient for volition, but not for intention, and hence
>>bereft of non-natural, semantic meaning; in other words, the
>>communication effected by it is natural, rather than expressive.  Thus
>>the necessary condition for an occurrence of expressive meaning is
>>intentional action, which depends on {\it noetic} agency.

PS:
>What causes the intentionality?

No one knows.  Note that, on a Kantian view, it's a *causa sui*.

>Philip Santas


`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                                   :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139           (617) 661-8151            :
: email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET            :
:                                                                    :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`


