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Article 4429 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
Subject: Re: Intelligence and Understanding
Message-ID: <1992Mar12.141039.8672@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
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Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
References: <1992Mar4.025014.13512@a.cs.okstate.edu> <1992Mar10.160141.11132@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> <1992Mar12.005100.22980@a.cs.okstate.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1992 14:10:39 GMT
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In article <1992Mar12.005100.22980@a.cs.okstate.edu> onstott@a.cs.okstate.edu (ONSTOTT CHARLES OR) writes:
>santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>>onstott@a.cs.okstate.edu (ONSTOTT CHARLES OR) writes:

OC:
>>>   The system must have volition--in turn which means that it is
>>>   dynamic and creative.

PS:
>>What do you mean by creative? Are electrons dynamic and creative?

OC:
>>>  The system is creative..  Electrons may not be; but the system composed of
>>>them may be.

PS:
>>But what does it mean creative?

OC:
>   Creativity - The attrbute which gives some system the ability to
>generate new situations, outputs, and problems in an environment or
>internally.  These new "outputs" can be, though not necessarily, free
>of context from given inputs from another agent.  These "outputs" are
>produced by influence from the enviornment in a volitional way.

Very nice:
Volition creates creativity, and creativity is produced by volition.
This definition is a tautology. Since you add "free of context"
I can assume that these outputs are random.

PS:
>>of some components. Till what level do you want to influence a system?
>>Isn't this 'influencing' a kind of control, that requeries knowledge of
>>the internal functioning of the system?

OC:
>  Yes, influence is a "kind of" control; but, it is not total control
>unless, of course, you are a computer.

If it is a kind of control, it IS control. What does it mean 'total
control'? Is this a religious term? Accidents can occur because of
factors that exist outside of the system you examine.

PS:
>>But you seem to say that volition is predetermined.
>>Your arguments are still not valid.

OC:
>>>  Volition is not predetermined--it is influenced.  A computer, on the
>>>other hand, has not volition even though certain outputs may not be
>>>predictable(even though, with rigourous enough analysis they can always
>>>be).

I think you must give a definition of volition, since you use
circular arguments. Notice that a human who becomes plasma in high 
temperature has not arrived to this state because of 'volition'.

PS:
>>Your results are still not valid.

OC:
>  If it is known that a computer will produce output X by stimulus Y
>then to get output X you must provide stimulus Y.  In this way, the computer

Output X can be produced by various stimuli Y.

>is predictable.  Of course, the computer must have been programmed to receive
>input Y and produce output X.  Of course, the computer could have other
>inputs which would produce other outputs.  But, it is known that a computer

Or the same outputs.

>will always produce output X with stimulus Y.  Of course, X and Y can
>be a series or a system of inputs or outputs.

Do you say that an input Y can produce various differnt outputs,
something like in parallel processing?

>  This sort of predictability is not possible on a human.  At best, you

How is this variety of outputs predictable since you have a unique input?

>could only say "George gives output X when provided by stimulus Y most
>of the time--or in EVERY SINGLE PAST CASE.  However, George could be
>given stimulus Y and not produce output X because some volitional element,
>which is AFFECTED by stimulus Y, determines a new output, perhaps, Z.
>
>[deleted text which does not answer to the previous questions]

That means that if you know Y you can determine Z (in case that volition
is not random).

Philip Santas

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email: santas@inf.ethz.ch				 Philip Santas
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