From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!mips!atha!aunro!alberta!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!zirdum Mon Mar  9 18:34:26 EST 1992
Article 4187 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Antun Zirdum)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Definition of understanding
Message-ID: <1992Mar2.033104.4206@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Date: 2 Mar 92 03:31:04 GMT
References: <1992Feb29.002301.8724@a.cs.okstate.edu> <1992Feb29.083155.10877@ccu.umanitoba.ca> <1992Mar1.073946.26151@a.cs.okstate.edu>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Lines: 70

In article <1992Mar1.073946.26151@a.cs.okstate.edu> onstott@a.cs.okstate.edu (ONSTOTT CHARLES OR) writes:
>In article <1992Feb29.083155.10877@ccu.umanitoba.ca> zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Antun Zirdum) writes:
>>In article <1992Feb29.002301.8724@a.cs.okstate.edu> onstott@a.cs.okstate.edu (ONSTOTT CHARLES OR) writes:
>>>In article <1992Feb28.013430.15621@ccu.umanitoba.ca> zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Antun Zirdum) writes:
>>>>
>>>>I am not calling anything into question, I deny my freedom of the
>>>>*will*! It may seem to me that I am free to choose position A over
>>>>position B, but in the overall scheme of things my choice has
>>>>been determined by outside influences (over which I have no control!)
>>>  By coin tosses I suppose you are making an allusion to the quantum
>>>randomness argument.  Some people use this argument to claim that 
>>>freedom-of-the-will exists; however this actually proves quite the 
>>>opposite.  After all, a thing that is random can not be controled--
>>>which is the point you are making, and a point that should be understood.
>>>I actually adhere more to a freedom of the will notion presented by
>>>Erich Fromm which holds that the freedom of will occurs at the outset
>>
>>For once I find myself in agreement with you, if only you would
>>not use words such as freedom of will (since these words are loaded
>>for me to mean opposite of determinism-of-will) The fact that the
>   I will use "volition" instead.  Hopefully this does not carry the
>   connotation which bothers you.
>    Yes, this is a form of WEAK freedom.  I am clueless, however, as to
>why you find this not related to the currect discussion?

	How about the fact that since Weak freedom is a definition
of humans, it does not mean that computers are not inherintly
incapable of it!
>>
>>What causes you to say that meaning is somehow interwined with
>>freedom/determinism? (I have heard this before from others, but am
>>really puzzled by this statement.)
>>>
>then, meaning looses its meaning(heh) because meaning requires that the
>statement be meaningful(shit).  Ok, lets start over, the idea of meaning
>requires that whatever is passed meaningfully has an impact that can
>determine certain outcomes within a range of possible outcomes.  By "impact
>that can determine" I emphasise "CAN" because it may not determine anything--
>after all I can say "Don't reply to this" and you could.  The meaning of 
>"don't" comes from the word itself plus the actions intended to be

The meaning of a word does not come from the word, but from the use
of the word, in relation to our actions. (so only the actions!)

>taken--don't could be intrepreted as interruptive because you wanted to
>reply; or as permissive because you did not want to reply or as passive
>because you don't care one way or the other about the statement as you are 
>going to do what you *want* to do.  If things just proceed without any 
>"language" being capable of altering behavior then it can be considered
>to be meaningless as the behavior would be the same regardless of what
>was said.

I do not only do what I want to do, but it can *also* be interpreted
as I will only do what I have been programmed to do! (programmed
thru memory, teachings, sensory inputs - that's it!)
If those sounds you call language did not influence my decisions
that would be true freedom (:-) However, the sounds do have an
effect on me that (while not determinable in this universe - ie.
you would need another universe to determine what effect those
sounds will have on me!) in principle, those sounds have a
deterministic effect on me, and hence my actions are 
predetermined!
>
>BCnya,
>  Charles O. Onstott, III
-- 
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*   AZ    -- zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca                            *
*     " The first hundred years are the hardest! " - W. Mizner  *
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