From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.ecf!utgpu!jupiter!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!nstn.ns.ca!aunro!ukma!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!newstop!exodus!appserv!orfeo.Eng.Sun.COM!silber Mon Dec  9 10:48:01 EST 1991
Article 1861 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Xref: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca comp.ai.philosophy:1861 sci.philosophy.tech:1285
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.ecf!utgpu!jupiter!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!nstn.ns.ca!aunro!ukma!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!newstop!exodus!appserv!orfeo.Eng.Sun.COM!silber
>From: silber@orfeo.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Silber)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,sci.philosophy.tech
Subject: The "causal connection" in the symbolic functions of the mind
Keywords: denotation, sense, communication
Message-ID: <1246@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: 28 Nov 91 01:06:11 GMT
References: <1991Nov27.111048.4933@odin.diku.dk> <1991Nov27.115032.5957@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Nov27.175341.15008@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Nov27.180755.5967@husc3.harvard.edu>
Sender: news@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM
Followup-To: comp.ai.philosophy
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
Lines: 48

In article <1991Nov27.180755.5967@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@boucher.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>
>It's a dichotomy: either a sign stands for something else in virtue of
>expressing a meaning (connoting), or it stands for something else "just
>because" (simply denoting), in which case, given that there is no invisible
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>string connecting it to the object or class of objects denoted by it, we
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are forced to postulate a causal connection between the object(s) denoted
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and the denoting sign.

 Again it is the bootstrapping-problem of consciousness, the "connection"
 is made by a mental-association, the causal antecedent of the mental-
 association is interaction with the environment ( even a consciousness
 in a person inside a "desensitizing tank", has a conscious HISTORY which
 involves past experience (i.e. interaction of the conscious agent with
 the environment))  The "causal connection" in the symbolic function of
 human consciousness is human intentionality.  Again the problem of the
 infinities etc, becomes less problematic when the mind is NOT considered
 as a mere ISOLATED ABSTRACT MACHINE SPECIFICATION, but rather as a
 RUNNING INSTANCE OF AN ACTUAL MACHINE IN COMMUNICATION WITH ITS ENVIRONMENT.
 (also, the input to the actual machine is not completely specifiable)
>
>MZ:
>>>If, on one hand, one identifies the neural pulses as purely denotative
>>>signs, ones that refer without expressing, one would be forced to postulate
>>>a causal relation in virtue of which these signs denote, stipulating that
>>>this causal relation is itself entirely immanent in nervous activity, in
>>>direct contradiction to the fact that our language, allegedly founded
>>>solely on such nervous activity, has no trouble referring to objects and
>>>phenomena that occur outside of the latter.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   same rejoinder as above + reiteration of earlier comment re:
   thermodynamic analogies.
>MZ:
>>>On the other hand, should one assume that neural pulses are connotative
>>>signs, which refer by virtue of expressing an intensional meaning, then
>>>such meanings, by the above observation, must be entirely captured in the
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>physical states of the brain.

 Again, again, a mind is not a "captured, isolated, abstract system",
 it is a system in contact with complex surroundings. Meanings 
 may or may not inhere totally in neural- structure+activity,
 But it is not "patently clear" that they do not as MZ so vehemently
 asserts ( or even demonstrates !!!!!! )


