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Article 1680 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zeleny@boucher.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Daniel D in the lion's den
Message-ID: <1991Nov27.144726.5963@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 27 Nov 91 19:47:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1991Nov27.144726.5963
References: <32905@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> <1991Nov21.005355.5696@husc3.harvard.edu> <1164@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.
Lines: 67
Nntp-Posting-Host: boucher.harvard.edu

In article <1164@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> 
silber@orfeo.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Silber) writes:

>In article <1991Nov21.005355.5696@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>Now, if neural pulses are indeed symbols in the above sense, it seems
>>reasonable to pose a question of what is the material (for it must be such
> ^^^^^^^^^^ (^^^^^^)  [feint]                 !!!!!!!!         ^^^^^^^
>>under the assumptions of reductive materialism, assumed by Dennett & Co.)
> *!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*
>>property in virtue of which they stand their referents, in accordance with
>>the traditional characterization of the sign by the formula *aliquid pro
>>aliquo*.  The problem with identifying such a property is twofold.  

ES:
> Rhetorical usage of the term "reductionism" is here in play.  The
> attacker of "reductionism" appropriates the position of
> the "materialist" as part of the attack.  To maintain that physical
> processes are the means in which, by which, and through which
> consciousness IS, is not to maintain that a symbol must have a
> material mushroom to sit on!  The messages passed between neurons
> are PHYSICAL processes albeit not "material" entities per se !!!

Do you understand the difference between a material property and a material
object?  Do you understand that my argument in no way depends on
reification of physical properties?  Do you know what ontological
commitment is?  Do you understand this question?

ES:
> <much theory deleted>

And, no doubt, misunderstood.

ES:
> Mind is inadequate, no doubt about that, but why let its incompleteness
> and its inadequacy force us into mystical appeals?

As shown by the cases of Spinoza, Strawson, and O'Shaughnessy, mysticism is
not the only alternative to reductive materialism.

ES:
>                                                     Sure we need
> better theories, but nevertheless, every theory is made out of 
> nuts and bolts!

This is, by far, the strongest argument for reductive materialism that I've
ever encountered.  Consider me converted.

Then again, there remains a possibility that you don't know what you are
talking about.  Is arithmetic made out of nuts and bolts?

'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
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: (617) 661-8151                                                     :
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'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'


