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Article 1587 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: bill@NSMA.AriZonA.EdU (Bill Skaggs)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Zeleny (was Re: Searle
Message-ID: <1991Nov25.141349.2152@arizona.edu>
Date: 25 Nov 91 21:13:48 GMT
References: <MATT.91Nov24000158@physics.berkeley.edu> 
 <1991Nov24.195230.5843@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Nov24.224724.2149@arizona.edu> <1991Nov25.103050.5868@husc3.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: bill@NSMA.AriZonA.EdU (Bill Skaggs)
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In article <1991Nov25.103050.5868@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>In article <1991Nov24.224724.2149@arizona.edu> 
>bill@NSMA.AriZonA.EdU (Bill Skaggs) writes:
>
>BS:
>>  I've been keeping quiet, hoping that this argument would simply
>>die out, but it doesn't seem inclined to do so, so here goes:
>
>I applaud your courage.
>
>>In article <1991Nov24.195230.5843@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>
>MZ:
>>>Pray tell, what part of the computer hardware or software could
>>>make it stand for something outside the machine, as signs used by humans
>>>stand for things in virtue of their meanings?
>
>BS:
>>  The answer is quite simple.  Any computer interacting with the
>>world outside the machine is going to need symbols for things
>>outside the machine.  For example, a computer manipulating a
>>robot arm will have symbols for the parts of the arm and their
>>positions.  A computer playing chess will have symbols for the
>>pieces and their locations.
>
>An arm is a part of the machine; it's not too hard to internalize the
>relevant part of the semantical relation, since the object denoted by the
>terms of the internal code is physically connected to the machine, and
>controlled by it.  Try programming a chess-playing computer to recognize
>and identify a piece belonging to an arbitrary chess set, as humans can.
>
>BS:
>>  Arguments such as Searle's and Penrose's and Zeleny's are 
>>essentially theological.  They all assume that humans have
>>one or another mystic power.  Penrose assumes that humans have
>>infallible intuitions for mathematical "truth".  Searle
>>assumes that human brains have unspecified "causal powers".
>>Zeleny assumes that humans are capable of infinite recursion
>>(which seems to be part of "denoting", as he defines it).
>
>Penrose argues that humans have mathematical intuitions; Searle argues for
>causal powers of human brains.  I argue that any system capable of denoting
>must in some way be capable of infinite recursion.  Can you tell the
>difference between an assumption and an argument?
>
>BS:
>>  I see no reason to think that humans are capable of any of
>>these things.  Zeleny says there is empirical evidence that
>>humans can "denote".  I wish he would give some of it.  Let
>>us please have one single concrete example, rather than this
>>haze of philosophical jargon.
>
>What did you call me?
>
>>	-- Bill
>>
>>things
>
>
>'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
>`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
>: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
>: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
>: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
>:                                                             so     :
>: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
>: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                                   :
>: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                                     :
>: (617) 661-8151                                                     :
>: email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET            :
>:                                                                    :
>'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
>`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'


