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Article 1189 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: map@u02.svl.cdc.com (Mark Peters)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Animal Intelligence vs Human Intelligence
Message-ID: <37713@shamash.cdc.com>
Date: 4 Nov 91 19:16:42 GMT
References: <37311@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Oct24.234823.7560@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> <37443@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Oct31.235402.12739@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> <37658@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Nov02.075827.27740kmc@netcom.COM>
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Reply-To: map@svl.cdc.com
Organization: Control Data Corporation, Silicon Valley Operations
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In <1991Nov02.075827.27740kmc@netcom.COM> kmc@netcom.COM (Kevin McCarty) writes:

>>map@u02.svl.cdc.com (Mark Peters) writes:

>>>In <1991Oct31.235402.12739@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:

>>>[About Washoe "lying" to avoid punishment for soiling the carpet]

>>>I can't think of any simpler explanation for that exchange. Maybe
>>>you can - share it with me? 

>>Simple avoidance of unpleasant consequences?  What is there in this   

> Simple avoidance of unpleasant consequences would serve to explain
>only the simple behavior of running away from imminent punishment.  It
>would not serve to explain the invention of a strategy of deception.

>>incident that requires conceptualization by Washoe?  Everything element
>>of it is perceptual - the people, Washoe, the doo-doo, the memory of
>>punishment for past transgressions.  The pleasure-pain mechanism is
>>basic to life, and I don't see any reason to look elsewhere for an
>>explanation for this incident.

> I don't see any thing perceptual in conceiving a lie.  This
>involves the imagination of a state of affairs which does not
>and never did exist, and substituting that for what Washoe
>knows to be the case.  How is this a perceptual rather than conceptual?

Well, we know that living things in general act to avoid pain/unpleasantness,
something which certainly does not require conceptualization.  What are
the other elements in this incident of which we are certain?  We have
Washoe, some people, some doo-doo.  In addition, we have the signs that 
Washoe has learned to associate with each of these things, and Washoe's
memory of past punishment.  Every single one of these elements is purely
perceptual, i.e., they are the products of direct observation, or     
memories of such.  

Washoe knows from memory that soiling the carpet brings punishment, 
which is an unpleasant, possibly painful thing.  Washoe also knows
signs for herself and the other people around her, and sees one of
these people associate the sign for "Washoe" with the doo-doo.      
What could be more natural in this situation than to attempt to avoid 
punishment by associating the doo-doo with one of the people rather
than with herself?  Washoe does not need to conceptualize anything
in order to accomplish this, she merely needs to be able to associate
one percept (a sign) with another (doo-doo, a person, a memory, etc.).

To claim that Washoe has the concept of lying is a leap well beyond 
what we know about Washoe and this incident, and also beyond what
we know about the concept of "lying."  The concept of "lying"
presupposes the concepts of honesty (lying is NOT being honest), virtue
(honesty is a type of virtue), and value (what virtue aims at achieving).
In addition, a whole bunch of epistemological concepts are presupposed,
including "logic," "reason," and "volition."  We don't have any reason
to believe that Washoe has any of these concepts, all of which she would
have to grasp in some terms before she could grasp "lying."

--
Mark A. Peters                              ****** ======================
Control Data Corporation                    ****** == "What a save!!!" ==
Internet: map@svl.cdc.com                   ****** == "What an idea!!" ==


