From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!generic.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!ogicse!milton!forbis Tue Nov 19 11:08:50 EST 1991
Article 1177 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: forbis@milton.u.washington.edu (Gary Forbis)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: MIND, BRAIN, CONCIOUSNESS
Message-ID: <1991Nov1.012319.17522@milton.u.washington.edu>
Date: 1 Nov 91 01:23:19 GMT
References: <37577@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Oct31.123035.20723@odin.diku.dk> <37623@shamash.cdc.com>
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 38

In article <37623@shamash.cdc.com> map@svl.cdc.com writes:
>In <1991Oct31.123035.20723@odin.diku.dk> kurt@diku.dk (Kurt M. Alonso) writes:
>>Consciousness is a meaning-giving activity,
>>and as such, it "creates" the brain by pointing out somewhere in the
>>blue and "exclaiming" BRAIN!. Afterwards, it creates the
>>mind as the holder of consciousness. Therefore, logically speaking,
>>consciousness precedes the brain. Historically, and if you are
>>a realist, the brain may precede mind and consciousness. However,
>>and just to loop the loop (:-), History itself is a product of
>>consciousness.
>
>Well, you are using the term "creates" in a very strange way, and it
>appears that you realize this (else why enclose it in quotes?).  It
>is true that the discovery of the brain as the seat of consciousness
>happened long after we knew we were conscious, but then that event
>was the *discovery* of the brain, not the creation of it.
>
>The point I was making was simply that there cannot be consciousness
>prior to the existence of the physical cause of consciousness, i.e.,
>the brain.  "Logically speaking" and physically, brain precedes both
>consciousness and mind.

What "Logical speaking"?  How can it be proved that "there cannot be
consciousness prior to the existence of the physical cause of consciousness"?

Has it been shown that counsciousness has a physical cause?  It seems to me
that the best we can do is say that the physical expression of our 
consciousness occurs through our brains and even this is merely accepted
rather than "proved" in any logical way.

It's really hard to discuss consciousness becuase it is not objectively
accessible though I try hard to watch myself think.  Even when one
monitors brain activity and mind activity and see some correlation one
is hard pressed to assign cause and effect (this mind sure likes
explanations and is willing to label "brain" as its cause but it would
really like to know that this is more than a convenience along the line
of "first cause", however, it is pretty sure there can be no proof to
its satisfaction.)


