Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!elna
From: elna@netcom.com (Esperanto League N America)
Subject: Re: can an IAL really work?
Message-ID: <elnaE6Bxq8.Bxx@netcom.com>
Organization: Esperanto League for North America, Inc.
References: <853605030.2652@dejanews.com> <7f7mju4izy.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <elnaE6ACyp.256@netcom.com> <7fhgixpoaz.fsf_-_@phoenix.cs.hku.hk>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 20:18:08 GMT
Lines: 102
Sender: elna@netcom20.netcom.com

sdlee@cs.hku.hk (Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}) writes in a recent posting (reference <7fhgixpoaz.fsf_-_@phoenix.cs.hku.hk>):
>
>But why do  you promote  Esperanto ONLY?  Why  don't  you also promote
>also an Oriental language, for the general public to choose from?  See
>what they would choose.
>
Is there a neutral (non-national) language based on Asian vocabulary
and grammatical structures?  I would be most pleased to learn about
it! 
>      
>    >> Even if they understand the "whys" and they are enthusiastic
>    >> enough, they still need a very long time of practise before
>    >> they can master those "difficult" grammatical rules.
>    >> *FLUENTLY* and *NATURALLY* using and following a set of rules
>    >> needs the development of some sort of habits, and this requires
>    >> a very long time of practice.
>    >> 
>    Esperanto> This is true for *any* language learned by *any*
>    Esperanto> student regardless of the degree of similarity between
>    Esperanto> the two.
>
>No, I  don't  agree on  this. 

Well, perhaps my case is unique. I have studied both German and French,
the two languages most similar to English (with the possible exception
of Frisian), and I tell you that after many years of study, and many more
of casual practice, I still have problems fluently and naturally speaking
either of these closely-related languages.

>
>So, to an European, the Esperanto grammar and lexcon are familiar.  To
>a Chinese,  both  the grammar and lexcon  are  very foreign.  So,  who
>would find Esperanto easier?  Where's the fairness?
>
As I've stated elsewhere, the fairness is relative. Esperanto is more fair
as an international language than is English, the native tongue of the
world's remaining superpower.
>
>
>    Esperanto> I would expect (based on experience, not wild
>    Esperanto> conjecture) that students approaching Esperanto reach a
>    Esperanto> usable level of proficiency in Esperanto approximately
>    Esperanto> three times as quickly as is required by English. 
>
>Do you have any evidence supporting your claim?
>
Plenty of anecdotal evidence. Mingchi Chien has told me this, as has
Naoto Miyazawa, Keiko Suzuki, and others.  I do not know of a controlled
study of this sort conducted in Asia, but research in Germany has
borne this out.
>
>    Esperanto> That
>    Esperanto> is, somebody studying Esperanto for two years can
>    Esperanto> speak, read, write and understand that language as well
>    Esperanto> as somebody from a similar backgroud can utilize
>    Esperanto> English after six years of similar study.  
>
>By "can speak, read, write  and understand", do  you mean they can use
>the correct tense, number and  case markers with  a very low (e.g. 5%)
>error rate?   
>
>I'd be surprized by  that, if that is the  case.  Why?  Those  people,
>after learning English for 10 years, having been taught the plural "s"
>ending since the  very  beginning, still  make  a lot of  errors  with
>grammatical number!
>
Yes, I have sometimes seen this. I stand by my claim that after three
years of similar study of Esperanto, there would be a similar level of
mastery of plural forms and other aspects of the language which is
normal of English students after ten years.

>    Esperanto> And if
>    Esperanto> Chinese students were *first* introduced to Esperanto,
>    Esperanto> and then allowed to branch out into English, French,
>    Esperanto> and other Latin-alphabet-based languages, it would be a
>    Esperanto> less frustrating introduction. 
>
>Not  necessarily.   I don't  think learning Esperanto  would  help one
>learn Vietnamese, Malay/Indonesian  and Tagalog, except being familiar
>with the alphabet.  I'd also wonder how much  help Esperanto can offer
>for a Chinese to learn Maori, Hawaiian, and Romanized Holo.
>
This might well be correct. I don't know. Perhaps the regularity of 
usage of the Latin letters is as regular, and therefore not frustrating,
as it is in Esperanto....

>
>    Esperanto> The value of Esperanto
>    Esperanto> as a propaedeutic is well documented and readily
>    Esperanto> understandable.  The difficulties of tense and number
>    Esperanto> are *much* more confusing in English than in Esperanto.
>
>No.  They are as confusing as each other, in the eyes of a Chinese.
>
I find this hard to believe! Do you actually claim that the verb
structure of Esperanto is as confusing as that of English???

-- 
Miko SLOPER              elna@netcom.com              USA  (510) 653 0998
Direktoro de la          ftp.netcom.com:/pub/el/elna   fax (510) 653 1468 
Centra Oficejo de la     Learn Esperanto! Free lessons: e-mail/snail-mail
Esperanto-Ligo de N.A.   Write to above address or call:  1-800-ESPERANTO
