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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Ebonics/Spanish (Revisited)
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References: <glen.852565077@heurikon.com> <Pine.SOL.3.91.970109115213.25322A-100000@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> <E3r9BE.D99@midway.uchicago.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.91.970109164348.13039D-100000@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:37:50 GMT
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970109164348.13039D-100000@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>,
Cissy . Thorpe <cthorpe@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Daniel von Brighoff wrote:
>
><ignoring the did, don't thing, I didn't understand it>

Mr. Casseres wrote: "Spanish speakers *don't* have people telling them
that Spanish is bad..."

You wrote:  "Wrong.  We *did*..."

(Emphasis added in both quotes.)

	He was contrasting the current state of BEV speakers unfavourably
with the current state of Spanish speakers.  That the treatment of Spanish
speakers has changed over the years doesn't invalidate anything he said.
If anything, it lends strength to it.

	Your argument seems to be "We were punished for speaking Spanish
in school, and it didn't harm us, so it shouldn't harm students to be
punished for speaking BEV."  Now, one could similarly argue that being
punished for writing with their left hands didn't severely harm
generations of adults.  Still, as a left-hander, I'm very happy that this
practice was discontinued before I came to school.

>> 	I would have thought it needless to say, but things have changed a
>> lot since you were in school.
>
>Yes, they have changed, teachers now "acknowledge" that fact that the 
>kids are going to communicate in the local language. That's okay. But 
>then still require proper English for written papers, in all classes. 
>And, they don't fine teachers for communicating with students in Spanish 
>(usually Tex-Mex)

	AFAICT (from numerous posts on the subject and PR releases from
the Oakland School District itself), that's what they *are* doing.  They
will *not* be "grading holistically", as has been tried at many schools in
the past, with generally negative results.  If this is your only criticism
of the Ebonics programme, than you have no reason to oppose it.

>> But how's your Spanish?
>>
>Not Bad, 

Can you write it?  Formally?  Are you comfortable reading novels in it?
Academic prose?

>how's yours?

Mostly passive.  My active Spanish tends to be fraught with
"catalanismes".

>> How are you going to have a "wonderful idea" to communicate if everyone
>> speaks and writes exactly the same?  A different "culture" is not simply 
>> a communication barrier; it is a unique way people have developed of
>> dealing with their environment.  Culture clashes, if properly handled, can
>> invigourate all the cultures involved.  Who hasn't learned more about
>> their own culture in one month of life abroad than they have in ten years
>> at home?  
>> 
>I think there was some misunderstanding - I didn't mean to say we had to 
>communicate the same, just that you have to follow the same rules. I notice 
>you didn't use any creative spelling or make any grammatical errors. 

From some points of view, that's true.  However, I regularly use "y'all"
in my posts.  Most teachers would take off for that.

>To 
>communicate in any language takes an understanding of the culture as well 
>as the mastering of the language. But if the only difference in the 
>students in a classroom is the color of their skin, why the necessity to 
>create the "difference" ... I am assuming that two kids living in the same 
>neighborhood in Oakland, California have had about the same cultural 
>experience... and yes, I realize that not all kids in a classroom come 
>from the same background, but isn't that what education is, an equalizer??

	First of all, that's *not* the only difference.  Oakland is not
deciding which kids would benefit from reference to Ebonics merely by skin
colour.  The whole point of the programme is to acknowledge that not all
students have the same *linguistic* background (their ethnic background is
irrelevant; there are "white" native speakers of BEV) and modify teaching
techniques accordingly.  "difference" is not being "created", it is merely
being recognised.

	And no, two kids living in the same neighborhood of the same city
do *not* have the same background.  Most of my neighbors in my home town
were also German/irish-Americans of the same socio-economic bracket.
However, I went to a different school than most of them, socialised
differently, and held (somtimes wildly) different values.  This was in
large part because I was Catholic and most of them were not.  Furthermore,
my father was a farmboy from rural Maryland.

	These kids are all different.  Some are new to poverty; some have
been living in it for generations.  Some have single mothers, some have
*two* mothers, some were brought up by their grandfathers.  Some have been
in gangs, some have been in choir, some have been in both.  Some have
known racial prejudice from an early age, some haven't.  These differences
add up.

	As for school being an "equaliser", well, forcing people to give
up their culture and assimilate certainly helps "equalise" them--when it
works and doesn't just build up resentment.  After all, if the methods
that worked so well for you are so good at "equalising" children, how come
the children in Oakland are not all "equal" after a century of them?

>What I love most about English is the expressiveness of the language. I 
>do not think that we need to include bad spelling and grammar as part of 
>that. 

	One person's expressiveness is another's bad grammar.  Maybe you
think "Let's go to the beach" is as expressive as "What say we do that
wild 'n' wacky beach thang?", but I beg to differ.


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
