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From: rdd@usa1.com (Aaron J. Dinkin)
Subject: Re: Stressed schwa
Message-ID: <rdd-0408962147550001@dmn1-64.usa1.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 21:47:55 -0500
References: <3201C38E.7D97@eurocontrol.fr> <4tu3mu$ej7@riscsm.scripps.edu> <rdd-0308961643190001@dmn1-19.usa1.com> <misraelDvL3py.29z@netcom.com>
Lines: 86

In article <misraelDvL3py.29z@netcom.com>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:

> In article <rdd-0308961643190001@dmn1-19.usa1.com>, rdd@usa1.com (Aaron
J. Dinkin) writes:
> 
> > The vowel I use in such words as "fun" is the IPA "turned a",
> 
>    I think not.  _Phonetic Symbol Guide_ says that [<turned a>]
> is "rather rare in practice", and is "illustrated by the unstressed
> short open final syllable in British English words such as _sofa_".
> This is a different sound from the one in "fun".

Not different in my dialect, though phonetically, not phonemically. (Note:
in this paragraph, I shall use [A] to represent "turned a", in a departure
from the standard, because there seems to be no standard way of
representing it.) That is, although "sofa" is /'sof@/ phonemically, if I
listen to myself say it, I am positive that the vowel _phone_ I use at the
end is the same as that in "fun", though much shortened - that is,
['soUfA] and /fAn/ (= [fA:n], or the like). I considered calling this the
same phoneme - that is, making "sofa" /'sofA/ - but I decided against it
because I had to pay attention to notice the similarity and did not
_think_ of it as the same phoneme, which is, after all, the main
criterion.

> > which can only be represented by [V"] in the ASCII IPA. 
> 
>    I would rather say that [<turned a>] *cannot* be represented in
> ASCII IPA, and would invent a new notation if I felt a need for that
> "rather rare" symbol.

Well, the chart on Evan Kirschenbaum's(sp?) web page shows [V"] for the
entire range south of [@] and north of [a], which in the actual IPA has
two separate symbols. It seems rather small-minded to restrict this range
to make the symbol correspond directly to one in the IPA if at the same
time it becomes impossible to represent a different one.

> > I believed, for all this time, that RP speakers pronounced "fun"
> > differently than I did, and now I find out that they pronounce it the
> > same, but use a character that represents a different vowel. Therefore, I
> > believe the question is not why I use [V"] where I mean [V], but why you
> > use [V] where you mean [V"].
> 
>    We don't mean [V"].  [V"]=[<reversed epsilon>] was introduced into 
> the IPA *specifically* to represent the vowel in RP "fern", and that
> is what it *does* represent.

I still hold that [V"] represents the range _from_ reversed epsilon _to_
turned a, by virtue of vagueness in Evan Kirschenbaum's chart. I think
I'll bring this to to his attention.

>    You do seem to be right that by using [V]=[<turned v>] for the vowel 
> in RP "fun", we are using it for something other than Cardinal 14.  
> I don't know why this occurred.  In my FAQ, I merely follow the IPA
> transcriptions in British dictionaries (specifically, Collins English
> Dictionary).
> 
> > Question: how do you represent the back central lax unrounded vowel?
> 
>    Isn't "back central" a contradiction in terms?

Sorry; I meant "mid-back".

> > ATTENTION: henceforward I shall use the ASCII character V to represent the
> > phone represented in the IPA by "turned a", rather than "turned v" as it
> > is in the system devised by Evan Kirschenbaum.
> 
>    I wish you would join the rest of us, and use [<turned v>] in 
> IPA -- and hence [V] in ASCII IPA -- to represent the vowel in RP 
> "fun", and never mind that it isn't Cardinal 14.

I am, in effect, doing exactly that (as far as any of you can know) while
claiming to hew precisely to strict phonetic accuracy. It is sort of an
excuse to straddle the fence.

> > Thank you for clearing this up for me, Mark, but please answer the
> > questions I've posed.
> 
>    I'm not a phonetician.  In my FAQ I attempt to introduce Evan's
> scheme to beginners, but advanced questions like yours would be
> better answered by a phonetician.

Oh. Okay. Perhaps I'll ask someone in sci.lang. (Cogitating....)

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

